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No. 67378

What is a TERF?

TERF, or Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism, is a branch of radicalism that denies the validity of transgender women’s identities as women. Sometimes, "exclusionary" is expanded as "eliminationist" or "exterminationist" instead to more accurately convey the degree to which TERFs advocate for harm towards trans people, specifically trans people who were coercively assigned male at birth. Their position denies that trans people's self-affirmed genders and sexes are equally valid as cis people's self-affirmed genders and sexes. It has a decades-long history of allying with anti-feminist causes in denying trans people access to health care, and other human rights.

Recently TERF is getting more exposure in feminism. What do you think about TERFs? Are they right, are they wrong, or somewhere in the middle?

No. 67379

'feeling' like the wrong gender isn't scientifically possible, it's a mental disorder. associating your sex organs with your gender is normal. anything else is dumb.

No. 67382

lol what "harm"? as usual, trans narcissists project their feelings when we make their pee pees sad onto women who don't put up with their bullshit. nobody wants to "exterminate" trans people.
No "terf" has ever hurt a trans woman, and not validating your fetishistic delusions is not harm.

The world is not a liberal arts campus. If you told Indian feminists that wanting sex separate bathrooms (which they advocate for) is sexist, or that lesbians need to be open to sex with a penis, they would laugh at you.

And since I'm assuming you're a biological female… quit stanning for troons. They will never do the same for you, ever.

No. 67386

I don't like this term because it makes it seem like the whole movememt is centered around "excluding trans" when that isn't the main point of rad fem at all.

No. 67387

I remember something about this topic not being allowed on lolcow. But don't take my word on that.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I think it's valid but also with current "trends" it's really hard to distinguish attention whores and people just mentally ill, seeking internet asspats to boost their little egos, friends and groups of support, just a feeling of belonging somewhere, from actual transes. It almost became a subculture that teens can wear. But I think it happens with everything that gets "hot". I'm kind of a stoic, I'm not as heated about this topic. As long as it's not harmful (and I know it can be, for example when transwomen bash ciswomen just out of idk? Jealousy?) then whatever.

No. 67389

File: 1505038430517.gif (473.94 KB, 200x150, ewwwwww.gif)

>Still identifying as a feminist

No. 67390

>It almost became a subculture that teens can wear.
Almost? No, it 100% IS.

No. 67391

While we are splitting into more factions, the forces of men are United stronger than ever.

Terf vs trans is an argument that belongs on Tumblr since the worst thing they can do to each other is say mean things. It's such a fucking distraction.

No. 67393

>tfw no terf gf to shit on trannies with

No. 67394

tumblr shit in general is a distraction

No. 67396

>I think it's valid but also with current "trends" it's really hard to distinguish attention whores and people just mentally ill
This. I'm definately pro trans rights but I have my reservations about a lot of things, specifically the weird cult of "breaking gender norms" by actually just enforcing gender norms or the idea that the antitrump pussy hats were transphobic.
Unfortunately there's too much of a 'with us or against us' thing in these circles so even asking a couple of questions will have you labled terf. The left is really tearing itself apart as >>67391 says

No. 67400

No. 67405

Back when I was on Tumblr as a teen, I'd identify as a TERF. Now I hate 99% of trans people.

No. 67408

File: 1505091763049.png (191.26 KB, 600x600, 1501637956046.png)

i just find it weird that people are supporting literal straight men who put on makeup and shitting on lesbians who don't like dick
it's amazing how you can manipulate people who just want to "be on the right side of history", just make a bunch of tumblr posts about how terfs are literally murdering people, and everyone will hate them!
i really hope this is just a trend

No. 67410

it's funny how so many of these big name trans women activists end up being outed as abusers and pedos

funnier still that none of the people they prey on seem to cis men

No. 67417

So where do yall get your daily TERF doses of reality? I've been checking r/gendercritical, any good tumblrs to follow?

PS trannies reading this - you are men roleplaying as women based on sexist stereotypes. wearing your mummy's dresses after school didn't make you trans, it made you a boy who liked dresses, and instead of working to make that an acceptable trait for men, you invade female spaces, how dare you.

No. 67418

Self purging is a bad trait of Liberals and liberalism overlaps with feminism a lot. We already had radfem and libfem and now we're gonna split again over some bathrooms and Tumblr posts.

I'm looking at this from the perspective of American liberal that really wishes we could get our shit together since the right has steamrolled us in elections for the last decade.

No. 67419

atleast this is something worth splitting over. invading female safe spaces is ridiculous. people need to think more clearly before sparing one person's feelings at the cost of someone else's safety.

No. 67421



Well, while you do that, bills like this are sneaking through state legislatures. Summary of that is Doctors can lie to you or simply not tell you about complications with pregnancy and avoid liability. This bill is there to provide cover for doctors who do so to avoid you deciding to get an abortion.

And yeah, that's Texas, but since 2008, more than a 1000 political offices have flipped from left to right, and these kinds of bills are getting disgustingly common again.

Of course, if you're not American maybe that bathroom thing is relatively more important on the feminism battlefield, and then my opinion is invalid. I just don't think this worth making a whole new acronym movement, based on what's happening in my country right now.

No. 67424

Get your offtopic derailing out of here. Nobody's saying that banning abortion isn't a relevant feminist issue but creeps putting on a skirt and makeup to harass women and take over their spaces is the theme of this thread you idiot.

No. 67425

yea, i'd rather make sure we can actually talk about abortion rights or the uterus in general without hurting some gross crossdressers feefees cause they don't have a real vagina, thanks.

No. 67426

TERFs are the theme of this thread. You know, that movement that had to differentiate itself from radical feminism because their number one issue is to be Trans-Exclusionary.

Since that issue is so important to them that it makes up the first two letters of their name, they have no problem backing the enemies of feminism just so they can stick it to trans people.

No. 67427

Jesus just fuck off. You sound like a butthurt tranny.

No. 67428

Is there anything in my post that is incorrect? TERFs don't have a history of siding with misogynistic allies just to get trans people?

No. 67429

>get to trans people
>protect themselves from purposely mutilated men trying to get access to our safe spaces


No. 67431

That's the part you're going to fix?

This is why I said what I said about TERFs. Because talking shit about trans people was more important than even attempting to argue that the movement doesn't get used by men as a wedge to crack feminism in half.

TERFism only covers one thing that radfem didn't, which was bathroom stuff. Yet TERFs will flip to the right, against libfem, in a second over it.

No. 67432

you're acting as if not being totally 100% left libfem is going to the right 100%. it's not black and white my friend. being on the same wavelength as the right doesn't make anyone 'right' so to speak, it's just some overlap, and most of us are fine with transrights, but they need to not interlace with feminism because it's not appropriate.

No. 67435

That's a more like a radfem point of view though.

TERFs split off from radical feminism and added "exclusionary" to their name because "most of us are fine with transrights" was not acceptable. They are directly against any type of "inclusive" fem by definition.

Anything more moderate than that goes against the first two words of what they call themselves.

Of course, any girl that wants to be TERF is free to do so, but I just said what I said because I don't think having a faction of feminism that can't play ball with the other feminisms is a good idea, especially over bathrooms.

The big picture view of the movement is that they are girls for whom radical feminism was not radical enough. They named themselves Trans-Exclusionary which means (and TERF behavior seems to bear this assumption) that the core of their feminism is to oppose trans. A narrowed down radfem doctrine like that can and does put TERFs in position to be used against the other feminisms by anyone promising to be anti-trans.

All of this is said through the lens of American politics. But the Carolina bathroom situation showed how easily TERFs could be flipped to supporting and possibly voting for politicians who are anti-women just for this one issue.

No. 67436

no i think you're confused, the exclusionary is referring to excluding them in feminism. having transrights separately is fine, but they don't want that. they want to shoehorn in all their shit into our rhetoric and get mad when they don't get catered to more than real women.

you sound like you've been on tumblr too much, most of us don't care what trans people do themselves outside of feminism, they just need to stay on their side.

No. 67438

You're using an extreme for trans and moderating the TERF position an awful lot.

You wouldn't know about those huffy mad trannies that TERFs get so ginned up about if you weren't on Tumblr yourself.

Normally you just poop, wash your hands and leave–that's all a bathroom is. But TERFs get so fired up over protecting this "safe space" that they happily jump in with Conservative boycotting of gay friendly corporations who have been great allies to feminism and LGB rights. All it takes is a media narrative of the big hairy trans-boogyman to get a growing section of feminism to turn right around and eat its own friends.

Of course, TERFs are free to be TERFs but I just think their zeal to be trans exclusionary is not helping anyone and only serves as a weapon that powerful men can use to break feminism in half on nearly any social issue.

No. 67445

i realize you must be a troll, but there's a reason bathrooms are gendered bro. and by the way, tolerable transwomen can and do go into our bathrooms without making a fuss and no one notices or cares. the ones who are up in arms are the non-passing penis using creeps who want lesbians to fuck them and demand to be treated the same as we are.

No. 67446


>corporations who have been great allies to feminism and LGB rights


No. 67450

read some dworkin classics, watch some magdalene berns videos and go from there.

No. 67452

Ban children from bathrooms- they're the ones who slide under stalls or creep through the cracks of the doors.

No. 67457

I used to be all pro-trans and had severe gender dysphoria myself, but without going into a long-winded story I came into a realization that it was all some grade A bullshit. I had many peak trans moments during a few years and ultimately started thinking outside of the trans bubble, especially after seeing tumblr fakebois and perverted, misogynistic transwomen. I've met some nice, moderately sane trans people but a hell of a lot more mental cases that should look into therapy and psychosis medication instead of surgeries and HRT.

While I do believe gender dysphoria is a real thing just like anorexia and other forms of body dysphoria are, it doesn't mean someone can actually have the "brain" of an opposite gender. Literally no study can confirm it. It's a mental disease and usually stems from sexual or gender-related traumas and is practically a form of dissociation. A lot of tumblr fakebois are just lesbians in denial or associate negative things with femininity. I was once like that too. The transwomen are either entitled heterosexual men who can't deal with the pressure the ideal image of a man places on them and decide they're lesbians in male form instead, perverts with a fetish or gay men in denial.

I really hate how libfems think the problem is with the gender binary itself and not the strict gender roles and stereotypes that exist to this day. While for example the 50's housewife ideal mostly isn't around anymore, girls are still left with immerse pressure to be beautiful and feminine instead of talented and intelligent. On the other hand femininity is associated with being vulnerable, sexualized, weak and only meant to serve men.

>they happily jump in with Conservative boycotting of gay friendly corporations who have been great allies to feminism and LGB rights.
The fuck are you going on about? That's what intersectional libfems are doing you dope, not radfems. They're the ones screaming about rainbow flags at mcdonalds during pride week because it's "commercializing LGBT issues". They're also the ones supporting fundamentalist islam, a religion well known for treating women like cattle.

No. 67462

I have some anti-trans ideas but i'm not a TERF because it's my #1 goal in life to get married and my best friend is mtf trans (but I don't really see him as a girl, and I guess he is fine with it)

No. 67464

I have some opinions that come across as transphobic but I think terfs, especially those identifying as one, are wrong.

No. 67484

and? we were okay a while without feminism, but the sad thing is that when we need it again, everyone denies we need it, we may not need it law wise, however we definitely need it socially

No. 67486

>their zeal to be trans exclusionary is not helping anyone and only serves as a weapon that powerful men can use to break feminism in half
>not wanting feminism to cater to literal men is helping men
Makes sense

No. 67488

Expanding a little on this: what I see most libfem people do when they bring up this argument is this retarded
>wah wah if ONLY you ACCEPTED us ALREADY we could like STOP FIGHTING amongst ourselves and go back to our FEMINISM
but that's wrong. First, because feminism has always been about women. Biological women, not because feminists were transphobic before trans even was a widespread thing, but because being female means you get socialized as a woman. It means you're probably going to face sexual harassment/abuse growing up. It means you're going to learn not to speak your mind, not believe in your potential, to contain your sexuality (or have it denied), and so on and so forth.
Then there's the female body we're all taught to find disgusting. Masturbation, vaginas ("ew! gross, smells like fish!"), periods, hair, excessive fat or not enough fat, the female body is understood not as a person but as something primarily used by men for sex.

Trannies understand this better than anyone, by the way. Why would they trade their socially accepted cocks for a disgusting vagina? Besides, they're "better than real women" - and the standard they use for that? They're more feminine, and their bodies are "more sexually attractive" (debatable imo but they do say that), better for sex, higher (male) sex drive, enjoy taking it up the ass.

Why would they get a vagina when screaming that pussy anything is transphobic?
Trannies don't want to be women.

And their issues are not the same women's issues, simply because most don't "pass". Most are never going to be treated the same way a woman is (even if we ignore socialization and focus on post-adulthood).

Their issues aren't women's issues, they're specifically trans issues and including those in feminism is retarded. And if they pass and want to address issues faced for being women, the fact that they're trans doesn't matter. It's not excluding trans people from feminism, it's excluding trans issues.
And when trans issues are brought into feminism? We get vagina-positive things and female health concerns labeled transphobic. As if being born with a "disgusting" vagina and socialized as a woman was some kind of privilege.

TL; DR: we were here first, go start your own movement.

No. 67490

File: 1505306855972.jpg (158.1 KB, 700x466, usma0084.jpg)

You can suppport trans rights without accepting the misogynistic parts.
It's harder and braver because the weak sheep will immediately brand you a TERF and then use it as an excuse not to listen to you.
It's easy to stay with the terfs or assimilated with SJW, but it takes real strength to stand your ground in the middle area. I don't want to gatekeep who does or doesn't feel like a girl and who gets to use the bathroom, but I will fight anyone who tells me that pussy hats are transphobic. Less trying to shove mtf criminals into either female or male prisons and more case-by-case judgment and pressure for prisons to create safe but equal alternatives to general population.

Much as not all muslims are Daesh, not all trans people are misogynistic autogynephiles. I agree that most trans issues are trans issues are alone, not women's issues, but I will still support those that I believe in and where they intersect because pic related. There needs to be less tearing 'traitors' down and more supporting individual expression and discourse about these topics.

No. 67498

I couldn't disagree more. Tell me where the intersection between women's issues and trans issues is without defaulting to how we're all "girls" and should stick together.

Any issues trans people face are trans exclusive, not in what happens, but why. For instance, a transwoman faces violence because they're trans, but only if it's obvious (or becomes obvious), but they choose that, they chose to become a woman because of their dysphoria instead of trying therapy to make them more comfortable as a man. A woman faces violence because they're a woman, they cannot simply decide not to be.

Being trans is a mental disorder. It's a sad one but it definitely is. Choosing to try to be a woman isn't the same as actually being one.

No. 67506

Completely random question here, how many of you ladies hate your dad?

No. 67511

I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

No. 67514

>Implying being a radfem has nothing to do with hating your father

Kek. I like how you didn't answer the question, either.

No. 67515

Not a TERF but I agree with some of the "transphobic" viewpoints. I don't want MTFs in spaces like bathrooms, changing rooms etc. Transwomen are a tiny minority, why should the majority (women) have to be the ones who are made to be uncomfortable? It's not fair.
Also the trans community need to fuck off with the "some women have penises" bullshit and say it's bigotted for a lesbian or straight man to not want to fuck them.
The trans community seem to be both misogynistic and homophobic at times.

No. 67516

My dad was a typically great dad, that's why I'm asking what it has to do with anything? Notice how YOU didn't answer my question.

No. 67517

stop feeding the robot and just report you dummy

No. 67617

I'm a TERF and my dad and I get along great, same goes for mom, sorry we don't fall into your childish lil stereotye

No. 67618


I agree with this.

No. 67623

I'm not a TERF really but I do admit many radical feminists have a point.

My main problem is that, well TERFs aren't even mean to trans people. The vast majority of them still respect them and their pronouns and such, they just just a disagreement about the existence of gender. I get that sucks for some people.

But TERFs are viewed like absolute scum who should die etc etc by every mainstream feminist.

But look at reality? Who are the people calling you "trannies" and committing actual violence and even killing you daily? It's not TERFs, it's MEN every fucking time. Like I even see antifeminists who call trans people "Trannies" all the time ranting about TERFs. Wtf?

No. 67626

>And their issues are not the same women's issues, simply because most don't "pass". Most are never going to be treated the same way a woman is (even if we ignore socialization and focus on post-adulthood).

A million times THIS. They will NEVER face the same issues as biological women so they should keep out of our spaces. They will never know what it's like to go through childhood, puberty and adulthood as a woman from birth. They will never be socially treated the same as women. So in conclusion - they don't belong in feminism. We don't have to take their "wah wahhh lesbians don't want to fuck me" problems into our ideology. They're men and they'll always be entitled men.

It's the intersectional libfems that have major daddy issues and not TERFs. Stop trying to troll this fucking thread and get out already.

No. 67634

Ok so I consider myself a feminist, and although I can respect transwomen/transmen and call them whatever shit they want (honestly I don't care what someone wants to be called unless it's totally extreme, otherwise I'm not bothered) I've always thought of transwomen not as "regular women" I put them in another category.

Like, I'll still call them a woman IRL or like for conversational/casual purposes but if it's for awards for example I would say " the first trans woman to win x" instead of "first woman to win x".

If anything, we should just have 3 bathrooms, men, women, and "third gender" (people such as trans,people who don't feel comfortable in either one idk).

Thankfully for me, I've only met 2 trans women in my whole life and they have not been creepy fetishists, they have looked and acted like "regular" women so I don't feel uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with them, but I can understand the need for another bathroom.

No. 67637


>But TERFs are viewed like absolute scum who should die etc etc by every mainstream feminist.

Isn't that a bit extreme? In this thread, those of us who are not TERF have been pretty respectful of them.

No. 67638

TW say that assault won't happen in the bathrooms and that they just want to quietly use them, but i honestly call BS since so many of them get triggered just by thinking about women having periods or being pregnant. I can imagine one of them trying to peak in if they hear a girl opening a pad or something.

Also to the ladies who say they agree with terfs but aren't terfs, what gives? Is there a fine line between terf and not a terf. I was under the impression that you don't really get to choose if you're a one or not.

As a more general question, is it possible to be a radfem without being a terf?

No. 67639

It depends on if you judge TERFs by their behavior or just by their doctrine. What they say is ok. How they say it, bothers me.

TERFs seem to like going out of their way to use the most demeaning terms possible for trans people. That's not something commonly seen in radfem. It's something completely separate from the arguments regarding trans people and I want no part of it. If vanilla radfem can cover my issues, them there's no reason to call myself a TERF and be associated with behavior that makes me uncomfortable.

No. 67644

>rips poster off wall

No. 67649

File: 1505618893496.png (763.27 KB, 1076x1920, tumblr_ou6qdbr9i11w9zrpno1_128…)

I don't know about mainstream, but on tumblr/twitter its pretty popular to hate on radfems/terfs in social justice circles.

No. 67650

The thing is that you would be considered a terf by many.

No. 67652

>Also to the ladies who say they agree with terfs but aren't terfs, what gives?
I agree with them on the basis that I don't believe that gender should equate to anything other than your genitals and I simply can't see transwomen as women unless they pass really well like Gigi Gorgeous or someone like that. Even then, I still see them as not real women. However, I also believe transpeople should have rights and don't have a problem using their preferred pronouns (as long as they're not pulling that special snowflake transtrender shit).

>As a more general question, is it possible to be a radfem without being a terf?

My experience with radfems are that they're foaming at the mouth over protecting transpeople. Like, they'll bitch you out if you accidently call someone you meet for the first time by their obvious birth gender.

No. 67653

>They're men and they'll always be entitled men.
This is the problem I have with transwomen. Other than the rare exception of the ones who lived like girls since childhood, they almost always have attitudes and personalities that clearly show they're male. Most live as males until adulthood, thus retaining their male personality even through their transition. It never truly goes away.

No. 67654

>For instance, a transwoman faces violence because they're trans, but only if it's obvious (or becomes obvious), but they choose that, they chose to become a woman because of their dysphoria instead of trying therapy to make them more comfortable as a man. A woman faces violence because they're a woman, they cannot simply decide not to be.

A) By the logic you're using, one could easily say if a woman doesn't want to be a victim of violence, she should simply dress as a man. B) The compulsion to harm a man in a dress is rooted in extreme sexism. You say they should go to therapy to be more comfortable with being a man, but what about someone who is, but just prefers women's clothing? Should feminists not stand up for those people?

No. 67655

>wishing someone would choke because they said something you don't like
>boiling said people in a pot
>H U M A N D E C E N C Y

No. 67657


>Who are the people calling you "trannies" and committing actual violence and even killing you daily? It's not TERFs, it's MEN every fucking time.

They're too cowardly to confront male violence. It's easier for them to lash out at women instead

No. 67659

Just speaking from my own experience, a lot of the time people won't say controvertial things irl amongst friends. But when it comes to discussing TERFs, I've had friends tell me to my face how they think TERFs are ugly, that no man will ever want one, they delight in the idea of them dying alone. They equate TERFs to Nazis, white supremacists and Trump-suppoerters (I don't even live in the US btw so idk what the obsession with Trump-supporters is). All those words are interchangeable to them. They'll share stuff with me about TERFs being DESTROYED by trans people in online debates or being screamed at by hysteric trans women looming over them at protests and marches.

Which is hilarious because I am a TERF and I have nothing but respect for my trans friends. I've never wished death upon anyone so idk why they want that for me. I want them to have the same rights as me and to be able to live how they want and marry who they want. But they have NOTHING to do with feminism and should stop putting their noses in it. I'm really sick of it. They get offended at feminist marches when people hold signs that have imagery of female body parts or when someone gives a speech and doesn't say "women AND TRANS WOMEN". They want women to be called "uterus carriers" which is so fucking insulting and objetifying. They demand access to our bathrooms which I think is fucking sick because that's where me and my friends have hung out on nights out when someone has been too drunk to stand or when someone has had something slipped into their drink and we're waiting on an ambulance. If we let trans people into our bathrooms, men will follow us in. It gives away our only safe space.

They're not feminists, they're just your run-of-the-mill misogynistic men. They see women as sex/baby-making objects, just like men and any feminist events they go to are just a fashion show to them. The only reason why trans people got involved in feminism is because they sure as hell weren't going to get support from anyone else, I wish people could see that.

No. 67663

Yep, I have trans friends who hate TERFs and have expressed nothing but vitriol for them. They either don't realize that I'm radical leaning or just don't care because I respect pronouns and advocate for LGBT rights. Like you, I respect transwomen and want them to be safe and happy–but not if that means potentially putting women at risk. Physically or psychologically. We can have women spaces where transwomen are welcome, but we still NEED female-only spaces.

I feel like radical feminism is much kinder to transmen because some radical feminists bought into the trans brigade logic, started to transition, and realized they're actually just GNC women. But their voices are silenced by trans groups because detransitioners apparently take away from the image they're trying to present.

I left the radfem circles long ago, because there were some crazies in there, but still agree with a lot of what they have to say. I'm reluctant to even label myself as a feminist now because it's a commodified trend rather than an ideology. At least, IMO.

No. 67665

File: 1505654128049.png (842.56 KB, 1280x1812, dcefb8ba-64dd-4db5-8c08-8a7133…)

That is based on this btw.

No. 67669

Well at least that one isn't attempting to hide behind being morally "decent."

No. 67671

>They want women to be called "uterus carriers" which is so fucking insulting and objetifying
Oh god, that is horrifying. Please tell me it's just a small number of crazies who want that. Can't say that I'm surprised, though, with the militant vitriol toward female genitals that's so rampant in the trans movement. How can you say you're a feminist and demand to be included in feminism when you want us to completely disregard THE VERY THING THAT SCIENTIFICALLY MAKES SOMEONE A WOMAN and is central to the history of female oppression???

The big thing that enrages me about the entire trans moment is the demand for erasure of female body parts. That shit just makes them the enemy. A militant feminist I'm acquainted with put a disclaimer on vagina related art that she meant no disrespect to trans women and that shit pissed me off so much, I wanted to flip a desk. The fact she even feels the need to say that so that she isn't seen as transphobic shows how insane this whole thing has gotten.

These people should be fucking happy with safely being able to live their lives and be called their preferred pronouns, this whole agenda to literally take over the female gender shows we've gone too far in the other direction. We need to balance acceptance with reality and stop catering to these asinine demands.

No. 67673

Talking about triggered trans tumblerinas, I love this blog

No. 67674

Wow those banners are really cute, wonder what she uses to make them

No. 67676


interesting article questioning why it's ok to be transgender, when it isn't ok to be transracial.

No. 67679

On the topic of transwomen not respecting lesbian's boundaries regarding dicks, I myself have been in the same boat, but with a transman. He was extremely offended by my decision not to date him and demanded a detailed explanation. I told him as gently as I could muster that having a penis is mandatory for me to have a sexual relationship with someone (the other big factor was that he was fat as fuck and I didn't find him remotely attractive, but I withheld that to spare his feeling to the best of my ability) and he painted me to be a transphobe on league with the kind of people who want to throw them in asylums and force them to wear dresses like back in the day. He made the big deal about how just because he didn't have a dick didn't mean he couldn't fuck me like a man and he had a strap on. I told him I simply couldn't and he proceeded to be a dick to me the remainder of our friendship.

When I relayed this to a friend a few weeks later, she told me I was in the wrong because I basically told him I don't see him as a man. I guess it's true, I just can't see them that way when it comes to having sex. I did realize when I thought about it that I could totally fuck a transwoman as long as she was convincing and she didn't have surgery or hormone therapy (I know that's only like .01% of trans women, but still). When I told my friend this, she insisted that made me bi, but I don't see how since penis is still essential. What do you guys think? Also, what is the best way to turn down a transman without being painted as a transphobe? Just tell them they're not my type, or would that give it away?

This person seems like someone I could have good conversation with.

No. 67681

I've literally never heard a valid argument as to why transgender is fine, but transracial is super offensive and I've asked that quite a few times. It always boils down to "it's just different!" I asked an extremely self-absorbed girl with gender issues how it's different than when I wanted to bleach my skin desperately and she said "you couldn't possibly understand what it's like to feel so disgusted with what you see in the mirror that you would do anything to change it". Like… yes, you dumb bitch, that's the entire fucking point of what I'm saying. I hated myself and had to learn to get the fuck over it. I have never seen people more self-absorbed than in the trans community. They have a disproportionate number of people who think they're the only ones who've ever felt real suffering or self-hatred and play the oppression Olympics like no other.

No. 67687

Because being transgender is a real thing. It might be mental illness, or a physical disorder, either way tons of studies do show that their brains are wired differently - more closely aligned to their gender identity.
And that's fine.
The problem is, it just doesn't dismiss your entire childhood and upbringing, which differs based on gender, or your actual genitals. The problem is people who insist they have a clit or a penis when they don't, or who insist that, because they feel like a woman/man then they know what it's like. And that's disregarding fetishists entirely.

No. 67688

Back when I was active on tumblr, there was actually a community of transwomen who openly identified as radical feminists, or "truscum".

Btw, truscum are people who believe you must suffer from gender dysphoria in order to be actually considered trans. Make of that what you will..

No. 67691

I'm sorry that that happened to you, anon. It's disgusting when someone doesn't respect your boundaries. Can't believe your other friend said that as well. People are allowed to have preferences and boundaries JFC.

No. 67694

Seeing talk about "transracial-ness" was what made me skeptical about transgender-ness.

What do you guys think though about comparing it to sexualities? Like, there are sexualities towards genders but not races, so I think that's why there may be trans-ness in regards to gender but not races.
But yeah, that's the only argument I can really think of to justify the difference between "transgender-ness" and "transracial-ness".

No. 67695

File: 1505727775006.jpg (44.25 KB, 527x350, Capture.JPG)

I'm loving the drama that's happening with some crazy fakeboi

No. 67696

File: 1505729361306.jpg (25.24 KB, 530x243, Capture.JPG)

I love you uwubanners

No. 67708

File: 1505762028284.gif (242.35 KB, 475x300, hitachiin_twins.gif)

Holy kek that fake "anxiety attack" typing

No. 67709

a lot of those brain studies aren't conclusive. we still don't know if there are sex differences according to neuroscience.

I left the radfem circles long ago, because there were some crazies in there, but still agree with a lot of what they have to say. I'm reluctant to even label myself as a feminist now because it's a commodified trend rather than an ideology. At least, IMO.


That sucks. Nobody should have to have sex with someone they don't want to

No. 67716

I love crytyping so much

No. 67718

>a lot of those brain studies aren't conclusive. we still don't know if there are sex differences according to neuroscience.

Well I guess not, neuroscience is practically primitive. We know so little about how and why our brain works the way they do, or don't. It's not outside the realm of possibility.
So many things can go wrong in the womb, people born without or with extra limbs, it's not that hard to imagine the body developing differently than the brain.
It's sort of like people who want to amputate a limb because it feels "wrong". Extremely rare, but it happens. It feels foreign and "wrong" because it isn't in their brain's map. I guess being truly transgender is sort of like that.

No. 67721

Just because something shows up on a brain scan doesn't mean it's a biological issue you're born with and not treatable. Depression noticeably shows up on brain scans and that doesn't mean you're born with it or that it can't be treated with medication and therapy. Brains go through changes according to your mental state all your life.

And body dysphoria is not a "birth defect". Anorexia is a form of body dysphoria. Black kids hating their skin is a form of body dysphoria. Anyone can agree that their self-hatred is because of outside influence and society enforcing standards and stereotypes on them, but suddenly with gender it's "a real thing" and requires mutilating surgery and hormonal medication that fucks up your insides for the rest of your life? When the other forms of body dysphoria are treated with cognitive behavioral therapy and psychosis medication? Imagine telling a black kid that no, it's not the society glorifying white skin around you, it's because you actually were born with a white brain. That's the equivalent of saying to a self-hating girl suffering through puberty that yes, indeed, your interest in stereotypically boyish stuff and hating your tits that attract unwanted attention really does mean you're a man and DEFINITELY not that the society is forcing gender stereotypes and injecting girls with internalized hatred of their objectified body since birth.

Since most doctors are now pushing the idea of offering HRT and surgeries right away, we'll never get to test different forms of treatment. Patients (and their parents) are told that they will most likely kill themselves unless they go through full transition, so of course they want to go through it. The only thing they leave out is the fact that the risk of suicide actually rises after transitioning. And why wouldn't it, it's basically just mutilating your body and a lot of young trans people have no clue how painful and irreversible it is.

No. 67732

The doctors are just doing this shit for money.

I read a study that mtf trans specifically have a lot of shame and self loathing in the US because of circumcision, which also is done in the same situation you described, scaring parents, not explaining how irreversible it is, not explaining the dangers of it as a procedure, just wanting to line their pockets. They're doing the same thing with the trans movement. Society pushes gender roles on people, which make them think they themselves are wrong instead of society. Then doctors mislead them and their parents and they ruin their bodies.

I am totally against trans anything, but not because I don't accept them, but because they are not a gender, or a sex, they're diseased.

No. 67734

I think this problem started when transgender was seperated from body dismorphia and declassified as a mental illness so the movement could gain traction. Like the transmovement has a huge issue with calling it a mental illness, and while I get there is still stigma around mental illness its not as much as it used to be and if they really cared about their fellow transpeople they would try to actually find a cure. I have read many heartbreaking testimonies about detranitioned transpeople who are now against the movement because of how they believed the lies and how not only did transitioning not help them mentally but how they didnt realise you cant go back and have now royally fucked up their bodies.

No. 67735

i think that's probably because, going back to the fetish aspect, people who actually -want- to transition for whatever reason would be shamed, since it's their choice now to ruin their bodies, rather than getting therapy. It wouldn't make sense to try to force the movement to cure the illness if they are the ones would would be shamed.

No. 67736

I cannot for the life of me figure out how anyone, no matter how big an ally they are, can seriously sit there and say with a straight face that it isn't a mental illness. I've talked to trans people who have said shit like "sometimes I'll see a pair of scissors and have to resist the urge to cut it off myself", not to mention all the talk of wanting to kill themselves and how prominent self-harm is with them. One of the people who said shit like this to me got enraged when I suggested seeing a consoler who specializes in trans people and said that's why trans people don't trust cispeople, because we hear this shit and tell them they need therapy. LIKE YEAH YOU FUCKING DO.

No. 67737

Seriously. It's the same type of thing the other anon was talking about where people -used- to get their limbs amputated. That doesn't happen anymore cause it's fucking insane. And yet why are we letting these people destroy their genitals? I just don't get it, but I really feel there's a money aspect to it. Once you cure someone, they only have a chance of relapse, but post-op trans people have to get followups or re-surgery, a lot of them get breast implants which require maintenance forever. When they're on HRT, they need to keep going back for prescriptions and check-ups. All this stuff takes years and can last until they die, while they can get therapy for a year and possibly be cured forever.

No. 67746

What are your guys thoughts on just not associating with transpeople or gender specials? Assuming there's no voicing that's the reason, just silently avoiding them.

No. 67749

I do this not because they are trans but because I assume that they would rage at me if I said something that didn't fit the general trans narrative surrounding dating, bathrooms etc. I don't want to be labelled as a transphobic bigot or right wing or whatever and have my name dragged through the dirt by someone.

No. 67754

Well, exactly. But if you do you'll be called a transphobe and screamed down (same as if you are a lesbian who doesnt want to date a transwoman) apparently not buying into these peoples delusions is oppression. Oh the bigotry!

No. 67755

Well easier said than done, a few years ago this was easy to do but I have noticed recently more and more people are coming out (I believe the term is transtrender? People who say they are transgender but are not dysmorphic/make no effort at all to "pass" as the opposite gender) okcupid is full of them. But also its like >>67749 said.

I find it very hard to keep quiet now tho when some of them go round saying "if you're a lesbian and you wont date a transwomen you're not a lesbian/a bigot" because they are saying this to teenagers who feel guilty and even worse getting a lot of much older transwomen hitting on them. I'm not even a lesbian but I have huge sympathy and am becoming protective of especially younger lesbians because no one should be forced to have sex with someone so they dont feel like a bigot. makes me sick.

Saged for rant.

No. 67762

The entitlement to sex with women who aren't attracted to them is such a classic toxic male trait. It makes it even harder to see them as women because of this. The lack of logic behind the "you're not a real lesbian if you don't date trans women" argument also really shows how delusional these people really are. So, you have to date people with dicks who wear dresses to be considered a lesbian? Okay…

No. 67764

huh? how dense can you be? people who get labelled "TERF" don't label themselves with that. OTHER people use that label, because despite the many opinions someone might have and the things they advocate for, the number one issue to trans people is that they're not being pandered to.

No. 67765

this is so fucking on point I want to read everything you've ever written on this matter. Especially that last paragraph.

No. 67766

Thank you for saying this anon. Like I used to be worried about coming here and showing my real thoughts because if you have any thoughts which are feminist-y you'd get shit here so glad this thread is here. But isnt it sad that these days not wanting to date everyone makes you a bigot?

Oh wait who am I kidding this just applies to those "horrible lesbians" who have the audacity to not fuck transwomen. Like I said even though I am not a lesbian I am starting to get really defensive of them because that shit riles me up. The transgender movement is a cult.

No. 67767

>If anything, we should just have 3 bathrooms, men, women, and "third gender"
My school has this (in the form of gender-neutral washrooms) and it works out really well. It's great because "non-passing" people can use those restrooms without making anyone uncomfortable, or having to be uncomfortable themselves. It's also nice for people who are cis but androgynous - I have a very masculine-looking female friend who uses these restrooms instead because it's awkward for her to get mistaken as a man when she's in the female restroom.
I imagine these would be hard to implement all over the place (like most places with public restrooms aren't going to have the room/money to add another) and stick-in-ass conservatives would throw a fit, but honestly it'd be great to have it in all universities, larger government buildings, even malls, museums, etc

No. 67768

Completely random question here, how many fedora's and mlp plushies do you own?

No. 67771

The sad thing is that the idea of a third bathroom is highly offensive to these people and their "allies" (blind ass kissers) because it's not ~fully acknowledging their gender identity~. In my perfect world, there would be four bathrooms; male, female, gender special, and family so that I don't have to shit next to someone's snot nosed male child. I once had a boy I swear couldn't be younger than twelve peek into my stall while he was in the bathroom with his mom. She acted like it was no big deal and he was "just curious". Like, no bitch, if you don't start teaching that kid that shit isn't acceptable he'll be on a registry by the time he's 20. I don't give a fuck if you identify as female or are a kid, I don't want males in spaces where I'm audibly peeing and shitting with nothing but a thin, easily see through door for privacy.

No. 67772

The sad thing is that the idea of a third bathroom is highly offensive to these people and their "allies" (blind ass kissers) because it's not ~fully acknowledging their gender identity~. In my perfect world, there would be four bathrooms; male, female, gender special, and family so that I don't have to shit next to someone's snot nosed male child. I once had a boy I swear couldn't be younger than twelve peek into my stall while he was in the bathroom with his mom. She acted like it was no big deal and he was "just curious". Like, no bitch, if you don't start teaching that kid that shit isn't acceptable he'll be on a registry by the time he's 20. I don't give a fuck if you identify as female or are a kid, I don't want males in spaces where I'm audibly peeing and shitting with nothing but a thin, easily see through door for privacy.

No. 67775

i N t E r N a L i Z e D M i S o G y N y

No. 67789

>And body dysphoria is not a "birth defect"

You can't say that for sure.

As for anorexia or hating one's skin colour, these are nearly unexistant without social precursors, or religious which is a social invention as well.

Or gender roles.

I'm just saying I do believe some people are genuinely trans, and I hate how people take a black and white view of things.

I am a radical feminist, and I think the vast majority of trans folks are either frauds or mislead or plain brainwashed. But to dismiss every single one of them is wrong.

No. 67795

There's been a lot of studies about trans being total bullshit. The brain from birth has no concept of 'gender' and is wired based on the rest of the body. They used to perform gender reassigment on babies, girls with large clitorises and guys with micropenises/botch circumcisions and it totally does not work. It fucks them up royally even with hormone replacement because the brain is wired from birth to understand it's real gender. Even if you were right about some people being 'genuinely trans' it is almost impossible to tell, and you could still attempt to fix it with years of therapy, if that doesn't work the surgery can come waaaay later. In no way should we be doing HRT and SRS before trying years and years of therapy even if being trans is real.

No. 67796

I am 100% fine with trans men, 100% critical of trans women. I do not care what trans people want to do, but people who were born male and retain toxic male traits have no place in women's spaces. Trans men at least should have a voice on issues such as reproductive rights etc, and a trans man isn't going to rape or hurt a woman like trans women do. Trans women are creepy 9/10 times.

No. 67797

>even with hormone replacement because the brain is wired from birth to understand it's real gender

You meant sex reassignment and sexuality, not gender.
I'm not disagreeing with you. However, gender is determined as the identity and roles imposed by societal and familial circles once the biological sex is determined.
Everyone can change genders easily, it's their biological sexualities that they cannot escape. That's why a baby who had a sex reassignment at birth begins to doubt their gender as they grow older because they still have the hormonal changes and thoughts of someone from the opposite sex.

At any rate, babies and young children shouldn't be mutilated like that ever. Nor the idea placed into their heads until they're grown enough to make their own decisions.

No. 67799

I'm a TERF. I support being respectful of trans people if I encounter them in the workplace etc. I believe they shouldn't be victims of physical violence. I'll even respect your pronouns if you're passing (Blaire White yes, Riley Dennis no) However I dont believe they are the gender they wish to be.

You are a man or woman based on what you're born with and no, I am not saying women born with defects or who lose one of those things at some point aren't women. If a woman retains at least 1 biological characteristic that only a biological woman can, then they are female. Ovaries, the ability to become pregnant, have a period, natural female hormone levels, breasts, etc. If you have any biological characteristics of a female despite having 1 or more defects or having something removed due to cancer and other physical diseases, you are female.

However, synthetic hormones, genital reconstruction surgeries to look more like the opposite (it's NOT reassignment), wigs, laser treatment, boob job, women's clothes etc, do not make a man a woman. Even Blaire White admit she isn't a real woman and is mimicking real women because it makes her happier. I have more respect if they accept they are trans women and dont try to force being considered the same as being a biological female.

No. 67800

And this is why my kids will probably go to private school. I do NOT want a trans child (a boy wearing girl clothes) in a locker room or bathroom with my daughter. Or playing sports against my daughter such as wrestling or any sport where he has a physical advantage. Just like I wouldn't want any other boy doing those things with my daughter. Just because its a boy wearing a bow with long hair doesnt mean its not a boy anymore. Even puberty blockers dont change that. Guys, imagine a 6 foot autogynephile in a locker room with young girls while they are changing. It's disgusting and shouldnt be allowed or encouraged.

No. 67813

No, I am using the term gender in relation to language, in that "girl and boy" are pronoun alternatives for "male and female" sex. I do not believe gender and sex are separate and they shouldn't be. If someone is female, they're a girl, and they should be described in that way. If someone is male they are a boy. I refuse to believe the misconception that gender=gender roles, because it does not. Your gender roles are affected by your gender, which is your sex.

No. 67815

I agree about transwomen but don't agree about transmen. Even if transmen retain female traits, they are deciding to live as men and want to be privileged, as men are, they have abandoned being feminine to be men and I honestly feel that the reason is because men are privileged more than women. Who wouldn't want to be more privileged?

No. 67830

Me too. Even after straying from the herd I still haven't a single IRL person to talk about this with sanely. It's sad to see so many people make dangerous choices because too many are afraid to gove these people the mental help they need, not physical mutilation. I remember reading somewhere before that even in the slim case the person transitions smoothly, they will still most likely commit suicide because the transition wasn't the answer to their problems in the first place.

Also, on an unrelated note, it's really annoying trying to find another girl to date in such a current political climate….but whatever, at least I have my anime body pillows

No. 67863

Oh so you're stupid. Nevermind.

No. 67895

They're not wrong though, do you speak other languages that aren't english? Like latin root or germanic?

No. 67896

She literally said she doesn't "believe in" the definitions of sex and gender and won't accept that they refer to different things.
Sex refers to the biological state of being male or female.
Gender refers to the characteristics of being male or female with reference to social and cultural differences.


You. are. wrong.

No. 67899

I don't think you belong in this thread…

No. 67900

So because I presented a challenge I need to leave?

For fuck's sake, I was AGREEING with these posts, just that I think there's a difference between sex and gender and to not conflate them.

No. 67907


>citing wikipedia

>calling an anon stupid because she feels a certain way

listen, i am not sure i agree with her either, but gender is a thing -others- use to define you, not that you use to define yourself, you sound worse than she does.

No. 67909

>calling an anon stupid because she feels a certain way
In a conversation where definitions matter, it is pretty dumb to bring bullheaded feelings to the table. The wikipedia is proof that there are conversations about the definitions and its not something I'm making up to be difficult, or because I'm an ESL struggling, which I'm not btw.

>but gender is a thing -others- use to define you, not that you use to define yourself

We're in agreement, and I quote >>67896
>"Gender refers to the characteristics of being male or female with reference to social and cultural differences."

No. 67911

I'd admit gender and sex were different but these people want to change their birth certificate to say a different sex than their biological one and want to be in women's restrooms which were made separate because of biological genital differences. People like Riley Dennis want lesbians to fuck people with dicks even though its called homoSEXUALITY not homogender. Give these people an inch and they want the whole mile

No. 67915

Why are trans rights a feminism issue to begin with? Why is it not an LGBTQ+ exclusive issue? From their own viewpoints "Not all trans people are women" and what issues do trans women face that trans men don't?

No. 67920

>Why are trans rights a feminism issue to begin with? Why is it not an LGBTQ+ exclusive issue?

I imagine its because of the "transwomen are real women and what they face is transmisogyny" mantra but I agree, it should be a LGBT issue as they would have more luck with it if its about rights and not trying to destroy what a lot of feminist movements fought for.

No. 67923

Underrated post.

I almost never see someone calling themselves a TERF unless it's ironic. These women are radical feminists, which excludes men by default. Feminism is for females. Trans "men" are included in radical feminism because they are female. Radfems just don't believe in magical gender identity bullshit.

TERF is also considered a slur by many radfems because not only is the term used to silence their opinions, it is often accompanied by graphic threats of rape and death. Documented on r/terfisaslur if you need proof.

No. 67924

>TERF is also considered a slur by many radfems because not only is the term used to silence their opinions, it is often accompanied by graphic threats of rape and death. Documented on r/terfisaslur if you need proof.

This. Before I even looked into radfem blogs I was very much part of the gender cult and believed all the shit they would say about those blogs. Then I looked at them for myself and found none of it was true. I've never seen a "terf" threaten transwomen with rape/murder just for being transwomen. My sympathy for transwomen went out the window when I see way too many of them threaten to kill and rape others at the drop of a pin. Its disgusting.

No. 67925

But gender and sex aren't different things.

No. 67932

I think gender is connected to the person's sex, but it's much more than just your genitalia. "Woman" has multiple connotations, such as being empathetic, nurturing, (being human), whatever other gender role/stereotype. Whereas female is purely based on biological realities (other animals are female, young girls are female but they're not women, etc.) So yeah you can interchange gender and sex in general, but when having discussions about trans, radfem, sex brain stuff i think it's important to differentiate.

From what i've read, radfems believe that gender (being in a woman role) is something placed on the female sex, thus creating a lower, subservient gender class. It's why girls "become women." (or at least that's how i interpreted the gender/sex definition)

No. 67934

See, I get that, but it's stupid.

Gender roles do come with gender, yes, but gender is decided based on genitalia, and that's how gender is viewed. Regardless of the gender roles that come with that gender, it's still decided based explicitly on your sex. The gender roles can(and have) been changed throughout history, which is what we want, but in order to do that, I feel we should keep gender and sex firmly attached. If we focus on the idea that gender is not sex, there will simply be another word that describes the same thing based on being female.

This is part of the reason why all those tumblr genders are ignored, because gender doesn't matter. People can't simply say change the word the use and present as a female and have female genitalia and be free of their gender roles.

If someone presents as a man they can only retain the privilege of being man until you find out that their genitals are a female's, then they are placed back into the woman category, because that's what makes a woman a woman according to most people.

Gender isn't really important at all when it comes to stereotyping females, because it doesn't start at the gender, it starts at the genitals. Saying "I'm a woman" will make someone feel the same about you as saying "I have a vagina/female genitalia" So I feel in a cultural sense they are exactly the same.

I especially feel this when talking about people who are trans, it's also even more closely connected in the trans community, because being a woman simply means to change your physical appearance and appear to have woman genitals.

If a transwoman identifies themselves as a woman, it is assumed they mean female to people who are communicating with them up to the point that it's found out that they have male genitals or have transitioned. In this sense, using their preferred gender may make them feel more comfortable but unless they look like the sex associated with that gender, they are not treated as that gender.

If you look at it this way, gender and sex are entirely the same, even in the sense that you've explained.

If gender is based on genitalia, and you gain gender roles based on your assigned gender, you cannot escape them simply by changing your gender or ignoring it because people will always associate your gender with your sex, and when they can't gender as a concept will simply change to something else with the same exact issues.

No. 67942

No, that's stupid. If sex and gender are the exact same thing then the word gender would not exist. What's the point. It was originally used to refer to the social roles associated with sex, something we don't get to choose. Feminist preferred "gender roles, gender hierarchy" etc but that got phased out. The word got into the mainstream and became used by prudes to refer to sex interchangbly because of the double meaning of "sex".

Now there are three ways to use it. The radfem way, saying it's the assigned role that you don't have to agree with. We can all just be the reproductive sex we are with a unique personality that shouldn't have to be influenced by our genitals. Or, the libfem way. We all have a "gender identity" i.e. an inherent sense of being a woman, man, neither. Instead of fighting categories, make more. Lastly, the conservative/right wing way that uses it interchangably because they believe men and women are inherently very different and aren't socialised to take on these roles.

The gender/sex distinction is essential in academia revolving around gender and sexuality discourse. It's seen in many fields, not just in gender/woman's studies but it's really important in anthropology and others too. You're being naïve. You can have your own opinion on what you believe gender to be, but in academia we seperate sex and gender, gender referring to gender roles. So whether you do believe it or not, it's important to distinguish between the two. Especially if people from different sides of the debate are talking about it. We're all using the same words but discussing different things!

No. 68068


Interesting because in my language (and in surely many others too) a word equivalent for "gender" does not exist. There's only the "sex" equivalent word and that is all.

Another great example on how our language modifies our view of the world.

No. 68069

My language doesn't have a separate word for sex and gender either. Only one. And this is the case with.. every language besides English probably. The English word "gender" originally referred to the classes of nouns (feminine, neutral or masculine) anyway but people started using it interchangeably with "sex".

I seriously don't get how inventing more "gender identities" is going to solve the problem with gender stereotypes. If anything, it'll just make it more complicated and worse with NEW stereotypes. People should just understand that there are two biological sexes but you can present yourself however the fuck you want while still being fine with your natal sex.

No. 68072

It's already making new stereotypes.

No. 68075

>every language besides English probably.
That's not true.

>The English word "gender" originally referred to the classes of nouns (feminine, neutral or masculine) anyway but people started using it interchangeably with "sex".

That's true. Which is why it's important to clarify the definitions when having these conversations. Personally, I believe that sex (male/female) is the only thing that actually matters whereas gender (masculine/feminine) isn't innate but harmful and oppressive stereotypes which makes me a terf i guess.

No. 68077

But everyone's saying that without 'gender' or the terms 'woman and man' those stereotypes would still be pushed on people who are 'male and female' anyways. It's not the fact that we use man and woman, it's that we differentiate our the female sex from the male, stereotypes will exist as long as males and females do.

No. 68078

but anon, male and female -are- masculine and feminine. even without gender, masculine would apply to the male sex and feminine to the female. how do you people not get this??

No. 68081

people aren't saying we should get rid of the words. they are saying we should stop forcing people to conform to the stereotypes.

is english your first language? in romance languages you are right but it's not the same in germanic languages. women are female and men are male. but women can be masculine and men can be feminine. think of butch lesbians and flamboyant gay guys for example.

No. 68082

But the idea is that the stereotypes will somehow disappear if we add different gender identities in, which they won't. Gender identity is related to sex directly.

No. 68083

there is no need for gender identities. they only enforce the gender stereotypes. the only thing that really matters is sex.

No. 68084

i don't think anyone is saying add different gender identities. gender is also not really an identity. i don't identify as a woman, i just am because i was born female. however, just because i am a woman, doesn't mean I can't be masculine (but if gender = sex then i would ONLY be feminine and can't possibly be masculine in any shape or form)

what the fuck is masculine and feminine anyway? liking trucks vs. dolls? logic vs. emotions? leader vs. subordinate?
honestly gender is such bs

No. 68085

I agree with everything except that people aren't trying to add gender identities. They absolutely are: bi-gender, a-gender, genderqueer and stuff like that. And they are trying to make male/female and man/woman into identities too.

No. 68088


No. 68089

this. i think that stereotypes do have a place in society, but they shouldn't be enforced. the norm is a thing that needs to exist, but it doesn't need to be pushed on everyone. i'd like to get rid of the idea of gender being seperate from sex, so we can just use gendered pronouns to refer to sex instead of gender roles. we need the idea of gendered pronouns in language but not the stereotypes tied to them.

No. 68091

oh yeah im aware of the weirdos, i was just saying that i don't think anyone in this thread is saying add more genders, since it's about radfems, who typically believe that gender isn't an identity but is something that is forced onto the person's biological sex. sorry for the confusion

No. 68115

It's also about the concept of terfs which adds trans into the mix, and a lot of trans weirdos are trying to make a fuckton of genders too.

No. 68120

I don't really get why gender stereotypes need to exist. And gendered pronouns do refer to sex. Only recently, people have started to use them based on gender identity.

No. 68123

Until very recently, I used to be more of a liberal feminist but I've realised that I'm way more aligned with radical feminism. Do you think radical feminism and gender critical ideas are becoming more popular and more mainstream?

No. 68125

Maybe but I think the veil of libfem/transactivist intimidation tactics is lifting so radfems and people of similar opinions are less afraid to come out of the woodwork.

No. 68126

i know and i agree and i want them to stop.

No. 68146

I feel like it's honestly gotten worse, I'm scared to even speak outright in any kid of place that should be seen as a 'safe space' or whatever, I'll only talk about this stuff online anonymously

No. 68152

Honestly, I think the reason libfems and trans activists are becoming so aggressive and violent is because more and more people are starting to see through their ideology.

No. 68278

This, I have a very small choice of friends that I can speak to about this. I've shut down all my social media activity to avoid ever being called out for saying anything that can be interpret as "transphobic" because the trans activists have gotten so vile and aggressive I'm not willing to risk it. They can fucking ruin your life in a day for one thoughtless remark. It's really scary.

No. 68287

We can only hope that is the reason but it seems to me that this shit is a long way from over. Maybe in the 2030s we'll have realised that encouraging this delusion isn't such a bright idea.

No. 68291

The articles marked #gender on the radical feminist site feministcurrent.com are very enlightening. In the discussions in the comment sections, the writers and many of the regular commenters are very adept at clearly and rationally defining gender and sex and defending feminism and women-only spaces against attacks by transactivists.

Radical (and second wave) feminism seeks to abolish gender (because it is a tool of patriarchy) while transactivism reinforces the gender binary. For example, when a MtT states, "I am a woman because I feel like I am," they counter with, "What does being a woman feel like, without resorting to performative gender stereotypes?"

The notion of "non-binary" reinforces the gender binary. People who self-define as non-binary describe themselves as "feeling" like and both a man and a woman or somewhere in between and want the freedom to present themselves as either or both. Again, these statements rely on performative gender stereotypes. The same is true of "agender."

With the rise of modern transactivism, some gay and lesbian activists have proposed separating the LGB from T. After all, LGB are identities of sexuality and not of gender, and the LGB communities have traditionally welcomed all manner of gender expression. Accusations of transphobia against gays and lesbians who are not attracted to transgender individuals offensively redefines gay and lesbian identities.

Transactivism subtly erases butch lesbian identity. Many young FtT who have detransitioned realised that they are really butch lesbians. Previously they had concluded that they must be men since transactivism defines "feeling like a man" as preferring stereotypically male-gendered behaviour and presentation.

In transactivist ideology, sex and gender are discrete until the distinction becomes inconvenient for personal or political gain, at which point they are content to conflate the two. For example, the movement to allow for a third sex classification on state-issued identification and birth certificates as "X" or "non-binary": the designation has historically always referred to biological sex along with other descriptors of innate physical characteristics for the purpose of identification. But rather than push for changing the qualifier from "sex" to "gender" they laud the legislation's unspoken and clumsy redefinition of "sex".

No. 68406

File: 1506815654162.png (207.18 KB, 421x750, received_1680515268627502.png)

Something that I hate about the Anti Terf community is the whole "Terfs are LITERALLY killing trans people". There is no document of a Radfem or Terf assaulting a trans women. But there is alot a violence towards radfems both physically and verbally. Two weeks ago there was a elderly Radfem in londan that was attacked by two transactivists. There's also this porno that's in the making by a "Feminist" porn company. The Twitter was banned but the company behind it still has a Twitter. Instead of complaining about the evil TERFS, Maybe acknowledge the facts that a ton of trans activists are disgusting and violent

No. 68409

One tranny activist literally stabbed two lesbians to death and killed their two sons. But I guess since they're both lesbians and the sons aren't white it doesn't matter.

On the other hand a straight woman is hit and it's an international scandal.

No. 68411

File: 1506822216599.png (918.7 KB, 848x988, Screen-Shot-2016-11-17-at-7.34…)

Not even shocked that this dude murdered two lesbians and thier son.

No. 68412

I think it's funny that you don't get it. It's because it was done by a transsexual that it's not all over most media, not because the victims aren't white.

No. 68422

And don't forget all the "trans activist" transwomen convicted of sexual assault such as Cherno Biko who raped a woman to "forcibly impregnate her". And another transwoman Abuzar Chaudhary organizing a violent assault against TERFs. And the recent drama of Shmorky (a nonbinary transwoman) grooming minors to fit his sexual fetishes. There are so many cases of transwomen harassing and attacking women but none of them make it to the mainstream news outlets because they get categorized as "female on female" assaults.

And as for the issue with lesbians being shamed for not being attracted to transwomen, this is a pretty good look into how men have alwys tried to erase lesbianism. http://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/07/08/lesbianism-attack-though-not-usual-suspects/

No. 68424

lol no, that's the only reason it would be. crazy conservative news stations eat that shit up, but they don't wanna defend lesbians.

No. 68426

Going through the articles was a breath of fresh air but fuck did I get mad reading the comments. Even if the trans apologists were debunked again and again, I still can't believe women are siding with this.

I'll repeat what I keep telling my friends: at this point, I'm more afraid of this side of liberalism than I am of literal nazis. At least the Nazis are clearly identified as violent and "evil" by themselves and everyone else. They don't pretend to be morally correct. The same cannot be said of trans apologists, who pose themselves as "the right side of history" and end up dragging anyone who means well and wants to be inclusive into their dangerous narrative.

No. 68432

I agree 100%. I have been having so many arguments with a friend who thinks that people for the 'right thing' are okay to be idiotic extremists. It is infuriating. They think people like those mentioned ITT are boogeymen but believe and fear any mention of the same types of people on the opposite side. I personally feel that is a much more dangerous way of thinking, because it can be argued that people who can so easily become neo-nazis were already predisposed to that type of thought. Where as people who are violently setting back a good cause are ruining impressionable minds that wouldn't have become so extreme.

No. 68438


This Never Happens is an archive for articles related to violent and sexual crimes committed by males who are posing as or claiming to be women. It is not a discussion group. Members may post articles, links, and brief fact-based descriptions of the incident. It is intended for public viewing and to be a resource to show people who tell women that this never happens.

No. 68439

The controversy over MtT entering women-only spaces dates back decades to the Michigan Womyn's Festival and the rise of Third Wave Feminism during the 1990s.


Liberal Feminism inclusive of Transactivism grew out of Third Wave Feminism. Radical Feminism is a return to Second Wave Feminism and a backlash against the tenets of Liberal Feminism that dilute feminism and redefine "woman" by including transgender.

Dyke March Not Dick March!

Every year more and more lesbians decline to attend their local Pride celebration's Dyke March due to its invasion by "translesbians".



No. 68440

Browsing this group made me disgusted. That's it, I hate anyone pro-trans. No exceptions.

No. 68449

>They don't pretend to be morally correct.
I realized recently why transactivists bother me so much, when there's so many shitty people out there. And it's because the whole thing reminds me of religion. It's a cult-like, blind belief in something they consider morally correct but really isn't, and they are extremely forceful in their attempts to indoctrinate people or punish them for not believing. And the way they associate it so closely with things that ARE actually morally correct (fighting racism, misogyny, homophobia etc) makes it hard to isolate and criticize the issue.

No. 68458

File: 1506902640063.jpg (54.48 KB, 500x533, just stop.jpg)

I've noticed a lot of people who do not identify with being terf or even feminists speak out against transwomen in the same way terfs do. But when transwomen spout shit like pic related its easy to see why.

No. 68459

fuck, I hate this so much. Such a clear demonstration of how they're just enforcing and clinging to gender roles

No. 68460

Exactly. I've yet to see anyone explain gender that doesnt reort to this.

No. 68461

Wait….did they post this on a LESBIAN FACEBOOK GROUP? Un fucking believable man. I don't even get that upset about the trans community as a lot of people in this thread, though I understand where you guys are coming from, but this? Going into a space meant for females and slyly suggesting that they aren't female enough? Fuck right off.

A lesbian wearing flannel with a buzzcut is a still a woman. Trying to insinuate that she isn't because she doesn't wear bows and exhibit 'compassion and sensitivity (read: submission) is fucked up.

No. 68462

>Going into a space meant for females
If they were here they would be calling ou transphobic and cis-scum. This whole thing has gotten so rediculous and they are angry that people are seeing them for what they really are.

Rather than make their own spaces they seem hellbent on destroying others-I used to be sympathetic to these people but now? They can go fuck themselves.

No. 68463

> they would be calling you transphobic

Yes, they probably would. But I don't even necessarily mean that they shouldn't be allowed there or any shit like that, but if it was indeed a facebook group meant for lesbians, don't waltz into the group and make a post like that. That's some bullshit. The one and only thing that bothers me about the trans community (personally, though I'm starting to see other convincing arguments), is their blatant misogyny and need to put biological women down in order to prop themselves up. Just like another group that we already have to deal with this shit from on a daily basis….CIS MEN.

Sorry for sperging out but wow. Go make that post in a trans group if you want to insult women for not being your idea of feminine. That's some catty shit.

No. 68465

File: 1506905551609.png (563.5 KB, 568x1882, 1506519308160.png)

No but this is the point. As mentioned in the transwomen thread, this is the reason they are getting hate. They do this constantly.

>is their blatant misogyny and need to put biological women down in order to prop themselves up

Again this is a resonable response and the reason many people dislike them, not the made up shit about women being jealous of transwomen etc. Hell i'm not even a feminist but this is one thing I agree with terfs on. I''ve seen even the most open and liberal feminists get shit on. Like with pic related, even when they are invited to join all they seem to want to do is destroy because they are angry at women for being women. As you say, its misogyny.

No. 68466

lmao @ them not even trying to hide their hatred for women. The very thing that they are trying to become.

God they might even be more aggressive and shitty towards women than a majority of cis men are.

No. 68468

This is so depressing. I just looked into the festival and it seemed like such an awesome place, why do these people have to fucking ruin it? Cis men went the whole 40 years without trying to infiltrate this festival but fucking trans women couldn't accept women wanting ONE even where they could gather with other women who've had the same life experiences. Women experience so much based on their socialization an anatomy, to deny women the ability to share their experiences seems blatantly misogynistic and/or a selfish manifestation of weird jealousy.
I get it if they feel upset about it, but the fact that they pressed so hard to completely stop the entire event forever just because they couldn't attend is so fucking selfish and entitled.
Actually the more I think about it the more it seems like a silencing tactic, especially because this event was a major gathering point for lesbians

No. 68469

>blatantly misogynistic and/or a selfish manifestation of weird jealousy

Back in the day when I was defensive of transwomen these accusations seemed obsurd to me. After seeing all the shit they write tho its not hard o believe.

>I get it if they feel upset about it

How so?

>Actually the more I think about it the more it seems like a silencing tactic, especially because this event was a major gathering point for lesbians

This is the only reason I can think of why they would be upset by it, and it just shows how entitled they are. I dont feel bad being excluded from lesbian groups because i'm not a lesbian. Some groups need their own space thats not discrimination, the fact these idiots feel the need to shoe horn themselves intoo everything women related when most women dont even do that shows how fucking deluded they are and how different their lives are from us.

No. 68470

please reply next time.

No. 68471

whoops my bad, i thought i did but i can see now its not there, this reply was for >>68468


No. 68476

To be honest, those other fights are dragged into it quite easily since they all share the "identity above all else" aspect, which is problematic (rofl I hate this word but don't have a better one) on its own. Once you take someone's traits as both a requirement and a free pass to talk about a subject, you lose all objectivity and you no longer side with the truth. You're right - it's very much like a religion both in principle and execution, and it even comes with a salvation of sorts ("being a good ally".)

>The very thing that they are trying to become.
They're not trying to become women like us. They're trying to become their own idea of a feminine being that's heavily fetishized, plastic, "better at sex", "more appealing to men". An ideal of femininity, as opposed to "a woman". Not too different from drag queens, I might add, at least not as far as looks are concerned

No. 68491

>They're not trying to become women like us. They're trying to become their own idea of a feminine being that's heavily fetishized, plastic, "better at sex"

Exactly, and this is why its not surprising a lot of them are mra's.

No. 68492

>who would you consider more female, a biological male with a huge/fragile ego and fake tits or an actual fucking female???

No. 68493

So much this excellent essay:


Enter the newest and loudest cause: transgender activism. Beneath the lavish media praise, the trans movement is hiding a litany of self-annihilating logic and regressive attitudes that merit public conversation. Aside from changing language to suit their subjective identity, the push to deny women sex-segregated protections, and the aggressive support for the transitioning of children, the often overlooked reality to this activism is the movement’s blatantly aggressive homophobia.

No. 68515

This screenshot makes me want to fucking vomit. It summarizes how sexist and entitled these transwomen really are.

No. 68550

I won't be rude to them or express my opinion about it, but i secretly think it's a mental disorder and no matter how well they pass, most of them are terrible and still act like men (as in whining lesbians won't fuck them, like no, i don't want your chinese bootleg pussy, and i'm not sorry in the slightest for it)

No. 68551

>They're not trying to become women like us. They're trying to become their own idea of a feminine being that's heavily fetishized, plastic, "better at sex"
All of this, for at least 90% of them that's probably what they really are.
They fetishize being women like crazy,I once saw a thread about those fuckers being happy they got catcalled or even groped or just guys being nice to them because "i pass desu uwu".
Just fuck those degenerates.

No. 68561

File: 1507130893951.png (576.25 KB, 1080x876, IMG_20171004_112718.png)

The majority of them don't even pass lmao. Most of them still have big fucking beak noses and stubble.The fact that "Butch transwomen" is now a term these fuckers use is so gross.Its just an excuse for them to put no effort into looking female but still get asspats from the transactivists

No. 68568

That's a fuckin beard, right? Did someone….just tell someone with a beard that they pass as a cis woman?

No. 68576

>butch transwoman

what like, "danielle" muscato? fuckin lol

No. 68578

Yup. Man has a full beard and everything. He has a Tumblr where he argues with the "ess Jay dubbaews" and "TERFS". He also calls himself a "Tiny underaged slut", is into lolicon, and is a huge fan of known hentai artist/Pedophile Shadman. His Tumblr is Not-your-safe-space if any of you want to cringe at this ugly fucking creep

No. 68580

what was YOUR peak trans moment, ladies?
mine was when i got groomed by a much older e-popular disgusting freak who simultaneously fetishized and preyed on me being a baby lesbian. said freak emotionally abused and gaslit me to an absolutely insane degree. i didn't realize just how much he had broken me down or just how predatory he was until he was openly toying with my mental state while he knew i was institutionalized for having the worst major trauma and stress induced episode/breakdown i have had in my entire life.
speaking from experience, these deranged animals are a serious danger to closeted/newly out/baby lesbians. they know how to wear a caricature of femininity like a veil to hide their true nature and intentions, and since most (non tumblr indoctrinated) women consider them men, they can appear at first glance to be a satisfactory compromise between one's true lesbian desire for women, and the ever-looming pressure to suppress that desire and be with a man. this is exactly why i ended up dating an array of them, and how i myself became indoctrinated into the trans cult, for a time.
i feel particularly bad for how i treated the women who tried to warn me about/save me from these predators. i absolutely undeniably threw them under the bus and smeared them because i was afraid of the rage fit repercussions of my "girl"friend at the time, who had intense paranoia and a violent temper that made him very adept at turning barely legal baby lesbians into lifeless husks of their former selves who existed solely to fulfill his sexual pleasure and personal needs. i won't go into explicit detail because this is, imo, the most sickening part of this ordeal, but… surprise, surprise! the older man who groomed me was a closet pedophile and used me as a less risky surrogate for a child to groom.
apologies for the blogpost, but i thought i could offer some insight as to how these pieces of shit operate, and why young girls are often eager to be with and/or defend them.
this person was my first experience with a MtT and every man i have dated since him has only further affirmed that this is their true nature.

No. 68586

>>68580 peak trans for me was two certain incidents. First one was when some transactivists started calling Malala Yousafzai (A women who has actually fought for women's rights) a TERF and SWERF for no reason other than her saying that prostitution in her country was dangerous. Second peak trans moment was when a trans women said that trans women cannot rape cis women because trans women are opressed and only they can be raped. As someone who currently is trying to cope with terrible PTSD from sexual abuse, it was so offensive and disgusting to read. These dudes are beyond dangerous

No. 68612

Mine too, but also when it came out that laverne cox defended a transwoman who brutally raped and murdered a girl, and then seeing what over public transwomen (like janet mock who said being raped was a right of passage and made them a woman)

No. 68614

>like janet mock who said being raped was a right of passage and made them a woman

That seriously makes me want to not live anymore. What the fuck is wrong with people? Does she not realize how harmful that is to propagate? Fuck.

No. 68620

I've made some effort to get more familiar with feminist thought and communities. There are some clever theorists, but maybe 90% of activity online is cancerous trash.

The majority of feminists have no praxis at all beyond participating in flame wars and being mean to people on blogs. They couldn't recommend any legal or institutional change, they would just tell you that the world would be a better place if everybody agreed with them and avoided using hurtful terminology. These flamewar feminists get mad at PUAs, incels, conservative Christians, other feminists, and (if they're TERFs) trannies. There's nothing dignified about it, they just like feeling righteous while they wage cyber bullying campaigns and getting mad at spergs using the term friendzone. I've never seen any activist group as catty or cannibalistic, and the entire movement is a stream of life ruining campaigns directed against one woman or another. TERFs are unusually bad offenders here.

It all comes off as disgusting. There's no concern for the wellbeing of anybody, it's just outrage addiction, sanctimoniousness, and the kind of contempt for weakness you see among neo-Nazis.

Feminism, in its popular manifestation, validates almost everything Hoffer said about mass movements.

No. 68625

Just about anything you read online will be pretty toxic. It's better to judge feminism by what it accomplishes, and not by the rants of mad people on Tumblr and Facebook.

No. 68626

What has it accomplished in the last decade?

No. 68629

>There are some clever theorists, but maybe 90% of activity online is cancerous trash.

Er, hello, welcome to the internet. Thats pretty much true for all things. You must be new.

No. 68630

I actually used to be a huge trans activist and quite frankly believed I was trans myself. In a nutshell:
>1st step: I saw all the Tumblr transtrenders. That was step 1. talking about all the shitty genders they came up wth.
>2nd step: I saw all the gross ass transwomen preying on women and trying to take over their spaces
>3rd step: I saw how parents decided that their fucking 2 YEAR OLD is trans and they wanted to raise them in their "real gender"
>Peak moment: I realized how the trans movement practices homophobia and homosexual erasure and then finally came to terms with my own homosexuality.

This whole trans religion is so fucking dangerous to young people. I feel sick every time I see 20-year old butch lesbians in denial getting HRT and SRS because the society is more accepting of a transman being straight than a woman being masculine and a lesbian.

No. 68633

I-is there a term for a standard feminist that is against tranny shit without being 'radical'?

No. 68634

a feminist.
i dont even know why they are trying make lgbt issues a feminist issue they are seperate things

No. 68636

>>68634 k but if you simply call yourself a feminist, you're gonna have dumbass liberal Feminists say "But feminism is for everyone! Real Feminists include trans women" because for some reason people think the movement created for women's rights has to include every single fucking person in the world

No. 68638

It's really frustrating that there's no established medium between liberal and radical feminism. I agree with radical feminism in terms of the gender issues discussed here but I still want to be able to enjoy some kinky bdsm shit without having it analyzed as some bullshit effect of patriarchy. Moderate feminism when

No. 68640


Well just ignore them. Any group is going to have a bunch of idiots and a-holes that make the rest of us look bad, and that includes feminism. Fight for what YOU believe in.

No. 68655

>moderate feminism when?
Soon, I hope.

Anyone else just wanna punch those "i'm anti feminist u guise lol look i'm so speshul" girls?
I get not wanting to be associated to 3rd wave feminism, which can get retarded, but without feminism they probably wouldn't even be where they are right now. Are they just desperate to be "not like the other girls" or…?

No. 68656

Agreeing with this. I dont get why it's a part of feminism. I don't even get why "T" is a part of LGBT. It should just be LGB, being a tranny isn't a sexual orientation, gtfo already.

No. 68657

>Anyone else just wanna punch

Thanks, you're a big help.

No. 68664

Internet feminism is unusually bad, even for the internet. Also, the movement has some leftover mainstream legitimacy it doesn't really deserve anymore (at least imo).

No. 68665

>Internet feminism is unusually bad, even for the internet.

I used to think this before i discovered a lot of times anti-feminists pretend to be feminists and spout stupid things (like that one "womans" who wanted to decrease the worlds men population by 90%, turned out to be a mra)

>Also, the movement has some leftover mainstream legitimacy it doesn't really deserve anymore (at least imo).

How so?

No. 68666

that's probably true of a number of them. they still influence other dumb younger girls to agree with them. even shit like that that's fake always incites others since it gives them a voice. those kinds of mra idiots are dangerous.

No. 68670

>(like that one "womans" who wanted to decrease the worlds men population by 90%, turned out to be a mra)
I really mean more in terms of being repetitive than evil, and in terms of cattiness. Tumblr and twitter feminists get mad about the same shit everyday. Add in all of the antifeminist autism and the whole scene is a vortex of outrage which produces nothing at all.

>How so?

In mainstream media. Not necessarily with normal people.

No. 68671

Feminism has been completely fucked by the third wave. Now pretty much everyone below a certain age associates it with slutwalks and shilling for the porn industry/prostitution etc.

Not really sure what can be done about it at this stage.

No. 68673

I agree with you to an extent. And I know this will piss someone off, but I fear that the extreme wings of the third wave have only made things worse for women. I feel like there's more misogyny around than ever, and I worry that the third wave has partially encouraged that. It's like no one takes women seriously anymore, and now they want to boomerang us back to the 50s where women ~knew their place.~

It scares me a bit sometimes.

No. 68674

It's because respecting women has literally become a meme. If you even talk about the idea seriously you're bashed as a white knight if you're a guy, or labelled a feminazi if you're a woman.

No. 68676

Yes, and also the fact that they think "respecting" means groveling and worshipping women. It doesn't. We want basic human decency and base level respect. But no, women have to do 5 times more to earn even a modicum of the respect that they would automatically give to another man.

No. 68677

Bless this fucking thread. I'm so happy people are finally talking and exposing the bullshit about the trans cult.

No. 68678

the mainstream media really latches onto this shit too, because it plays out like a fucking freak show.

No. 68679

> I feel like there's more misogyny around than ever, and I worry that the third wave has partially encouraged that.
Anon, I hate to break it to you, but misogyny has increased because men literally hate women standing up for themselves or prioritizing anything over appealing to men. Not because feminism is wrong and warrants hate. It scares me too, but that's just because men are scary.

No. 68681


When did the Third Wave mutate into the morass it is today? In retrospect will this period be regarded as a time of upheaval or transition in feminism with the split between liberal and radical factions?

I came of age at the cusp of the Third Wave in the early 90s. RE/search Publication's Angry Women was my guidebook. I had a subscription to Bitch Magazine. I (stage) dove into Riot Grrl after feeling marginalised by male-dominated Grunge. At the same time, my bookshelves were stocked with the works of many Second Wave writers who were well-respected, if not still revered, by Third Wavers.

Androgyny was simply androgyny and not codified into an endless myriad of "genders". Gender expression was something a person did as opposed to who someone was.

Sage for being a grumpy old. I used to be with "it" but then they changed what "it" was. And now what is "it" seems weird and scary to me.

No. 68692

i don't think it's just that, many people who would have been feminists or allies are becoming really turned off my extreme feminism more than in the past. i mean, of course this was always the case, but i've known more and more people that are scared of saying they're feminist now than even 10 years ago.

No. 68695

Without an actual feminist political party, with organized leadership, feminism will always be represented by the dumbest person who makes a YouTube video or a Tumblr post.

It can't be helped. All grassroots movements will eventually be seen as too extreme for the average person unless they have a charismatic public figure to control the narrative.

No. 68697

that's true. and actually i feel like we can probably attribute much of the super negative light feminism is in to the internet. before, these people didn't get much headway, but the internet is propelling them and mainstream media is using them for sensationalism. it all makes sense.

No. 68704

Do any of you know any good Radfem/Terf websites or forums? I used to use Tumblr tags but now it's just full of libfems whining and acting like victims.

No. 68705

Go through block lists on tumblr, most on them are either radical feminists or lesbians or both

No. 68706

No. 68733

Again, that is because if you admit to being a feminist, men fucking hate you. Most girls want to be liked by men, it takes some guts to be open about your opinions and get shit on for them. And many of them will pull the 'not like other girls' shit because it's an easy way to get brownie points.

Men will never, ever respect feminism regardless of the form it takes because women pursuing their own interests is contrary to what they want from us.

No. 68734

It's not as simple as not having guts. There's been so much cringe made readily available by the internet that a lot of potential feminists avoid the movement just out of second-hand embarrassment.

One of the reasons why the Tea Party ended up successful was because they had a core of radio hosts with big enough voices to drown out the average person. If a normal person were exposed to Tea Party ideas, chances are that it will be relatively organized propaganda straight from Levin, Hannity, or Rush.

If a normal person is exposed to feminism, it's probably via memes and gifs of college students screaming. Even in this thread, girls are asking for links for feminist website.

If we can't even find them for ourselves easily, what's a teenager going to do? They'll only read angry, poorly written posts on Facebook and Tumblr by a girl who hates men since that's what gets reblogs and shared for laughs. At that moment, the young girl, who probably likes her dad or her brother, is lost forever until a close feminist friend can bring them back from the dark.

Feminism needs a Rush Limbaugh or at least an official political structure that can do damage control in national media everytime a idiot gets thousands of shares and eyes on her post.

No. 68735

And that subtle implication that those uninformed girls are cowardly and don't have guts is not helpful in the least. The focus should be on persuading them even harder. If they are gutless, that shouldn't be an obstacle to getting feminist ideas into them if they are packaged the right way.

One of the most interesting things about Mien Kampf is the inside look at the Nazi's branding strategy and how they managed to break up the blocks of Marxism and flip the socialist German worker into German Nationalism despite them being two opposing ideologies. Feminism doesn't have nearly as big a handicap as that, so there's no excuse for being a disorganized mess that can't even deliver proper messages to teenagers.

But instead of finding a way to make a good case for feminism to those gutless girls, too many feminists just pout and make fun them for not instantly being pulled into our fold.

No. 68736

That is definitely not what I meant to imply, though I can see how it sounded that way. I meant it more like 'it takes an impressive amount of guts', it's something I respect and admire but couldn't reasonably expect from the majority of people. It's normal and natural to favour being liked and keeping the peace over picking fights. I don't have the guts for it a lot of the time, feminist issues are just not an argument I enjoy getting into (in real life at least), especially with hostile men.

I'm just saying it's not feminism's fault. Men hate the idea of it more than any specific message it sends, no matter how reasonable and fair the message might be. Of course, there are always ways to improve how it's communicated and the impression people get of it, but it's not true that people are against feminism just because of the crazy ones with the biggest soapboxes. It goes deeper than that, even the most innocuously conveyed feminist messages get negative responses.

No. 68767

What experiences have you all had with trans men?

I knew 3 during my time in high school and 2 of them were emotionally manipulative. They all seemed to fetishize gay men.

Sorry for the repost. Turns out I'm blind.

No. 68769

I almost transitioned in high school so I spent a lot of time around FtM people, I'm obviously going to be biased here but I haven't seen nearly the same level of fetishism and outright misogyny as in MtF people, although you're right about there being some fetishization of gay men - I think that's very distinct among younger people as well. It is definitely a result of misogyny though, something that has been very internalized. I guess in a way it's more understandable to me, because honestly if you have the choice of being a butch woman or a man, of course being a man is going to seem a lot more appealing to some people (on account of living in a largely patriarchal society), especially those who have experienced a lot of misogyny or even sexual abuse.

No. 68772

Knew one that was friends with my boyfriend. Pretty much was a self important dickhead. We were friendly with each other. He used to constantly post about his political beliefs on Facebook and fight with people who disagreed.He also bragged about his transition often. He ended up telling me he didn't care if my boyfriend killed himself after I told him my boyfriend was suicidal. I stopped talking to him and he ended up deleteing me a month later after I liked a Ben Shapiro post. Another "Transboy" I know is my boyfriend's sisters best friend. "He" refers to "himself" as a girl when it benefits "him". For example when "he" wants to fuck someone or when it benefits"his" political views. Overall the transboys I've known are shitheads

No. 68779

You really hit the nail on the head with this one, anon.
There seem to be two types of main motives for FTMs. The ones filled with internalized misogyny/lesbophobia and possibly sexual trauma, and the ones fetishizing the fuck out of "gay culture" with some of the mentioned features thrown in the mix.

>Type 1-a: I hate women so much because women are dim-witted and weak and I hate being sexually harassed, allow me to become male so I don't have to be such a weak piece of shit! My daddy issues basically control my life and I never had a healthy relationship with other girls in high school so I let them twist my vision of femininity!

>Type 1-b: I'm lesbian/bi but I can't come to terms with my sexuality, I want to become a male so I can date girls without being horribly self-aware and afraid of being shunned! My parents and/or community probably hates homosexuals so they're going to encourage me into becoming "straight".

>Type 2-a: YASSS SLAYYYYYY omg I JUST saw that RuPaul episode, I'm SO friggin hyped to do a new drag queen makeup test also check out my new pastel coords uwu Gawd I love being a gay male because they get to be sassy and girly while still being likable, but when a woman does it, it's embarrassing! Gonna CROSSplay my fav girl character next cuz I'm such a trap! Remember - women lusting after men is icky, but gay men doing it is amazing!

>Type 2-b: I resent my female sexuality so the only way I get to vent out my pent-up sexual frustration is by presenting as an attractive man, usually as the K-Pop/Anime/Tumblr inspired idealized version of a male. I'm also a combination of all the beforementioned types because I probably do this as a way to escape sexual harassment, the stereotypical social role of a woman, the negative connotations associated with womanhood and my possible homosexuality!

So all of their problems actually stem from them hating the social role placed upon a woman and want to escape it, which is why so many tumblrinas are "nonbinary" or their view of being male is inspired by the glorified version found in media meant for women.

No. 68787

I know one sorta transman. The thing is she likes to be called by her male name, is dating a chick and dresses/does her hair like a guy, but doesn't have preferred pronouns or whatever and doesn't really advertise herself as a transman or anything. I know because we've worked on a few projects together but I'm fairly certain most people don't even realise she's trans.

I've however met several transwomen, they were all equally horrible and in your face with their 'femininity'

No. 68791


How about the increasing number of FtT who enter relationships with confirmed gay men and then get pregnant and give birth?

And don't forget the new terms we must adopt so that we don't trigger their dysphoria or make them feel excluded such as "pregnant person" and "chest-feeding".

If you have gender dysphoria, why are you having vaginal intercourse with a man and getting pregnant?

Woops, I'm sorry, what is the new term for "vaginal intercourse"? "Manginal intercourse"?

No. 68794


>Type 2-b

The tumblr fakebois?


Girls who pretend to be effeminate boys who often dress as girls but who do not experience dysphoria nor pursue transition or even bind. Gender is purely about clothing and accessories and which pronouns you use on social media.

What was wrong with dressing androgynously? For all their retro love for the 80s, androgyny isn't speshul enough, I guess.

No. 68801

TFW you find yourself agreeing with Piers Morgan.


Tabitha had to defend a suggestion from Susanna that she was 'dressing up', and said that how she looks on each day is important.

'It's not dressing up… It’s dressing up according to who I am that day,' she said. 'It’s important to create a bold identity.'

Tabitha explained that there is no equal share when it comes to whether she is a man or woman on the day. During her appearance Tabitha said that she is often 'confused' when she wakes up until her brain settles in to the particular gender of the day.

'There's no percentage at all – you just get what you’re given on the day,' she said.

Confirming that she was born female she added: 'I accept it but I wasn’t particularly happy about it. 'That is the difficult thing about being trans.. Sorry gender fluid. The reason I said trans is because I have many trans friends,' she said to clarify the mistake.

Piers - who said he had never met a person like Tabitha - questioned whether her biological father transitioning to a woman was the root of her 'confusion' over her gender.

'I'm not confused about being male and female, it just takes a couple of minute to work out,' she replied.


No. 68816

> hating the social role placed upon a woman and want to escape it
Yep, this is exactly what happened for me (>>68769)
I started questioning my gender shortly after being sexually assaulted, which was coincidentally around the age where girls start to develop sexual feelings in the first place. Female sexuality and genetalia felt horrifying to me as my only experience with that stuff was completely devastating, and I felt that being female was condemning me to a lifetime of this. Of course I wasn't putting two and two together, but I started having feelings that I desperately wanted to be a man and to have male genitals. Couple that with already being a tomboyish girl who was regularly told I looked like I boy and you have the perfect recipe for FtT. I imagine this happens to a lot of people - actually, I know from hearing their stories - and it's a really fucking tragedy IMO.
I was fortunate enough to have a therapist who was an older woman and still had "radical" feminist ideas. She really encouraged me to look at the root what was causing me to reject my feminine identity. IMO this kind of therapy should be the first thing that people with gender identity undergo. It took a long time, but with the patience and understanding of a professional I was able to come to terms with my identity and am now really happy being female. I know I'm an anecdote but at the very least this approach should be attempted before just delving into transitioning and hormones and all that, because more often than not there's an underlying cause that can be worked out.
Christ I wrote a lot sorry for the wall of text

No. 68823

Thank you for sharing that.

No. 68828


The increase in people transitioning without the requirement of psych evaluations or even a DSM 5 diagnosis of dysphoria is due informed consent model of care has been replacing the gatekeeping model in recent years.

Medical journal reading:

Op-ed reading:

No. 68832

> IMO this kind of therapy should be the first thing that people with gender identity undergo.
Exactly. Some detransitioners have said that they never went through any sort of counselling, the doctors just kind of listened to them and admitted them to HRT and SRS. It wasn't until some time after transitioning they realized that the root cause for their body dysphoria was in a traumatic experience or other psychological issues. And the trans activists are demanding that all counseling should be removed and people should have access to transitioning whenever they please.

I used to be the same as you anon, I was sure that I had the "wrong kind of brain" and believed it was fully a biological thing and transitioning would be the only way to medicate it. I swallowed the "unless you transition, you will kill yourself!" narrative hook, line and sinker. I was afraid for my life. But after a long while of self-exploring and overall observing the trans ideology with a more critical way of thinking I started to realize that my problems with my gender were stemming from early childhood rejection, sexual harassment, abusive relationships and internalized homophobia. After that my gender dysphoria started to fade little by little, and soon I realized I was completely comfortable being a woman.

These stories are so ridiculously common and I've seen transmen straight out admit that they're disgusted with the idea of being a woman due to being traumatized but still believe transitioning is the only way to go. What girl doesn't freak out when her body changes during puberty and she starts bleeding from her vagina? Female sexual biology and sexuality in general is still being a taboo to some degree and women have to suffer through regular acts of degrading sexism all the time. It's no wonder we grab at the opportunity to become a man.

No. 68835

I know a sweet ftm who I thought was just short, extremely babyfaced guy until he politely asked me to stop calling him that and explained. His subdued behavior and the way he dresses in a smart casual way gives him a passing vibe rather than his natural looks, but I think he works out and might have had top surgery or wear a binder. Instead of his gender being his whole personality he just talks about normal stuff like films etc. He doesn't fit into either of >>68779 types as he also is a supportive boyfriend and has lesbian friends, so doesn't come across as misogynistic or homophobic. 10/10 would date
But then I've seen lots of that "Type 2" grossly gay-fetishistic yaoi play and misogynist behavior from fakeboi types at anime conventions who absolutely never pass because they wear slogan pronoun Tshirts and pastel kawaii stuff. I don't have a problem with androgyny or men wearing makeup, I love the idea of breaking gender norms with fashion! But the insistence that they aren't a woman because they don't adhere to their own internalized stereotypes of a woman whilst conversely insisting that gender is a social construct so boys can have vaginas and wear lipstick just doesn't make any sense. I agree that those kinds of mtf seem to be more interested in 2edgy wish fulfillment coupled with internalized misogyny instead of 'just being a man'.

My experiences with mtf are the same.
I have a close mtf friend who sometimes I have to agree to disagree with, especially on what it is to 'feel like a woman' and I struggle with seeing them as a lesbian woman after all these years of seeing them as my straight guy friend. However our friendship has been unaffected by and I want to support them as they begin to transition. I also used to hang out with a nice mtf at a weekly group who clearly wasn't a biological woman and similarly there's a three obvious mtf where I work but they act like normal professional people, and as none of them have ever brought up the topic of being trans I have never questioned them about it. I respect them for it because it must be hard being stared at all the time when you're just trying to do your job, and I appreciate that they are more than just their gender.

However I have also had lots of run ins with stereotypical mtf with rainbow socks, neon lipstick with bare ungroomed face and dyed pixie cuts who scream about their girldicks, and those types are always obnoxious as fuck no matter their genitals. It's not even the visual part of them, I've seen unrelated events be overtaken with them preaching about their sexual validation as a woman via catcalls as if that's in any way comparable to being a woman or other fetishistic crusades and seen them try to hit on much younger girls in a predatory way that implies it's transphobic to reject them. I'm also acquaintances with two "nonbinary" guys who are the embodiment of male entitlement. One is literally always manspreading as he rants about hating white males, whilst his SJW girlfriend obidiently nods and cooks his vegan tendies.

As always, it is the crazies that scream the loudest. I'm definitely gender critical but the trans people that I am friends with are just people getting on with their lives and don't seem to be sucked into to the weird 'gender is a social construct except girls wear pink bimbo implants and boys wear blue snapbacks' rhetoric. It seems like trans people might be facing similar fracturing as the lib/rad feminism, with the relatively normal ones being drowned out by the autogynephiles shrieking about chestfeeding and ladyboners.

No. 68848

>I know a sweet ftm who I thought was just short, extremely babyfaced guy until he politely asked me to stop calling him that and explained

uuh, what?

No. 68854

Do any of you think autogynephilia is real? I believe it's real and extremely obvious that lots of "Mtf" are just autogynophiles but lots of transactivists say there is "no proof or scientific evidence".

No. 68855

I like to read about it. I always thought it was lousy bullshit but then actually meeting and seeing the way (mostly mtf) the people act has made me really genuinely think it's the case that this is the real issue. Tbh it's the most realistic explanation so anyone against it is going to try to burn it to the ground

No. 68859

uhhhhh, are you sure she's not just a butch lesbian and not a ftm?

No. 68867

No. 68877

it's a fucking fetish, that's like saying there's no proof furry is real. besides, the evidence speaks for itself

No. 68881

there's absolutely proof, you can definitely prove a sexual fetish, it's transgenderism you can't prove.

No. 68886

I used to joke about him being a short babyfaced guy because I'm an asshole. Eventually he quietly explained the reason is that he wasn't born biologically male.
They explained they are ftm

No. 68890

>trying to pass as male
>actively explaining they're not and denying your assertion that they are

and people think trans is real.

No. 68894

>Asks someone to stop making jokes that make them uncomfortable, and gives context.

He's probably already insecure enough as it is, and >>68886 charactertized her own behavior as assholeish.

Of all the stories in this thread, it's amazing that you chose this one to be a bitch about.

No. 68895

sorry i offended you over your mental disorder, anon. sit the fuck down

No. 68905

You seem pretty shook up that someone called you out on your idiocy, robot.

No. 68906

>tranny sympathizer in a terf thread
>calls people robots when called out


No. 68909

Not that anon, but please leave. Maybe your FtT friend is different but most trans, especially MtT are insufferable and go giddy over passing so someone getting upset about passing seems very suspect.

No. 68912

you're right, i call myself a woman's liberationist instead

No. 68916

how the hell do i find a girlfriend that doesn't buy into queer theory? i go on sites like her and tinder and its all ~pansexual kinky queer femmes~, nonbinary they/them genderfucks, or men. putting "no dick" in my bio would probably get my banned because it hurts mens fee fees lol

No. 68918

>Not that anon

Sure thing, dude.
You're acting just as retarded anyway because this is about an FtM and not MtF.

No. 68920


Bisexual here, this is EXACTLY why I ended up just settling with a dude (lol I don't mean "settle" settle, but you know what I mean). Every female on an online dating site was like the EXACT sjw stereotype you see on TheRedPill.

No. 68936

I'm the anon with the trans friend, not them.
It's your choice to disagree with trans completely, I also have concerns, but telling people to leave just because their gender critical ideas aren't exactly as radical as yours is childish. It's difficult enough to ask questions anywhere without being completely dismissed as being worse than hitler etc but now we're not allowed to talk because our nuanced viewpoints aren't terfy enough for your completely black and white ones?
Ignore or argue by all means, but trying to silence opposition makes you as bad as those trans types that dismiss every criticism as transphobic

No. 68942

File: 1507824287779.jpg (262.06 KB, 1069x1120, Screenshot_20171012-105607.jpg)

Anyone know the real details on this?

No. 68944

Fucking disgusting. Children aren't allowed to make other decisions for themselves, and yet this life and body changing decision based on childish whim is okay? What the fuck?

No. 68946

Does it works the other way too? You know, like when parents force a different identity to their kid only because their tastes differ from "normal" gender roles and stupid shit like that. Like when a boy likes pink and a girl likes trucks.

No. 68949

i looked the law up. it's ontario based, not canada-wide and the gender stuff isn't singled out as a criteria, it's part of a bunch, and it relates to adoption and social services to children, not really taking kids away


>Differences include: the current Act includes the child’s cultural background in this list while the new Act includes the child’s cultural and linguistic heritage; the current Act includes the religious faith in which the child is being raised while the new Act includes the child’s race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, family diversity, disability, creed, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression.

>The society having care of a child shall choose a residential placement for the child that,

>where possible, respects the child’s race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, family diversity, creed, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression;

>While parents may need help in caring for their children, that help should give support to the autonomy and integrity of the family unit and, wherever possible, be provided on the basis of mutual consent.

>The least disruptive course of action that is available and is appropriate in a particular case to help a child, including the provision of prevention services, early intervention services and community support services, should be considered.

the news sounds kinda sensationalist. it's not like someone will take your kid away because you refuse to call them xirs and solaireselves

No. 68955

It sounds like they're extending child's autonomy to be less focused on religious based stuff. So…are the going to get rid of other fucked up religious based shit too? Like genital cutting?

No. 68956

No. 68984

Kek, I just came from /leftypol/ trying to discuss trans agenda there but got called a trans hater, evil TERF, reactionary conservative and got threatened of rape and gulag. Why left wing males agree so much with trans bullshit? Is it because it makes radical feminism look bad in their eyes so it gives them fuel to hate women even more? Is it because deep down they want tranny dick? I will never know.

No. 68992

sorry anon, you can stay here among friends.

No. 68993

Most men care more about other men than they care about women. It's not really that surprising.

No. 68997


Honestly, I think it's just another sign of how fucking alien female lives are to them. I would have thought that conclusion was like, over the top radfem nonsense a few years back, but at this point, after knowing wayyyyyy too many lefty dudes who get weirdly intense about trans politics, I think that's it. They'd never put it this way, but they can see the perspective of a MtF person as a fellow male person–but they cannot fucking imagine what it might be like to be a female person, to live through the shit we live through, to know how invisible it is to men, and to wonder, perhaps, if maybe it might not be best to immediately allow everyone with a penis to decide what "woman" means now. They just think we're a bunch of cruel bitches/haggy dykes/icky mean 70s feminists who all just hate fun. It's easier than actually listening.

No. 68999

Anyone struggling with male friends who've come out as nb/MtF? I have a friend–sweet guy, great person–but he's come out as nb and it's….hard. He's from an affluent town, grew up into science/math/gaming, has a tech job, is dating a "queer" girl…and just like, in general, has lived a pretty easy life. But now he's nb and I have to sit here and act like he's moved closer on some "spectrum" towards my experience, when I'm sitting here knowing that his life is just like every other geeky dude I've ever known, and that he has not moved any closer to understanding my experiences just because he's dyed his hair pink. I'm glad he feels able to express himself (fashion wise especially) more freely now, I guess I'm glad that he feels like he has…idk, the permission to do so now. But I resent having to tacitly accept, when I use they/them for him, a worldview that has no fucking application to my life as a woman. I want to scream at him, sometimes. Blah blah oh you're trans, oh I have "cis privilege," that's great, but only one of us got catcalled as we walked to the train stop this morning and it wasn't fucking you.

No. 69001

Anyone else a woman in a "geeky" male-dominated field (game dev, comics, tech, etc) who's fucking exhausted by finding out all the other "women in x" are trans? I'm so fucking tired of people who grew up as horny little straight boys sucking all the air out of the room with their hyper-kinking visual novels.

No. 69004

That makes a lot of sense. Like they claimed I wanted to cut my husband's dick, posted some "radfem gf" meme that pretty much implied I hate men and want to castrate males, basically kept saying I'm a man hater all the entire discussion. When I said I expected violence from them so the rape threats were not surprising, they said I should expect them because I'm reactionary. I didn't even feel like answering anymore because they were treating me like a retard. The last reply I read was someone saying I was off the pills. They really get angry if someone doesn't enable trans' mental illness, it's literal violence. But they don't hesitate to be violent to us.

No. 69005


Yeah. Every year that goes by, I understand how so many 2nd wavers grew disillusioned with wider leftism. They were treated with the same shit. For the blah blah about radical leftism, so many of these guys still want someone around whose job it is to fuck them, clean for them, and raise their kids. Radical feminism shakes the core of their world, but in a really intimate way most men aren't prepared to deal with. It demands they take a serious look at their moms, wives, sisters, and the shit they went through for the sake of the men around them, and to DO something about. To CHANGE, even if it just means like, fucking doing the dishes more often. And they can't deal. I mean fuck, just think of radfem politics around porn–that's such a HUGE part of so many men's lives and personas, and radfeminism critiques it. So they can call themselves whatever lefty term they want, but at the end of the day, they can't fucking deal with women as actual people. They hate capitalism, but also, they want a mommy to suck their dick and wash their socks.

To editorialize a little, I see this in just how many trans women there are online who go hard into leftism, but treat it as a sort of fandom–like all the "Emily. 27. Trans dyke. Anarcho communist." types you see. It's easy for male people to get into leftism-as-fandom in this way, and just act like any woman talking about, idk, domestic labor, is just an EVIL REACTIONARY TERF. Which, to be pedantic, is really especially fucking stupid because MARX AND ENGELS THEMSELVES wrote about woman-as-a-class as the foundation of capitalism. Engels wrote A WHOLE FUCKING BOOK ABOUT IT.

It's all very radical and smashing capitalism until someone dares to talk about care work and maternal health and so much other shit that impacts so many billions of women around the world in dire ways. No, that's not relatable to some fucking 20-something dude with a software engineering job who may or may not be wearing one of those heart-shaped bondage chokers. So instead they scream about terfs.

No. 69009

it's especially bad in computer science. so many MtFs, i can't take it.

No. 69011


i just put 'i'm a lesbian, do not message me if you're male'. it's effective enough

No. 69012


What is it about the computer science field that attracts so many trannies? I have to take a few courses in it as a requirement for my accounting degree, and the class I'm in right now has 3 of them out of 28 students. Far above the supposed figures of 0.1-1% of the population being transgender that I've seen cited.

Is it the lack of required engagement with the public like they would need to do if they were lawyers or teachers? You'd think all the binary code would trigger them.

No. 69014

People in /leftypol/ consider feminism identity politics. Usually brocialists like saying people shouldn't care about race or gender, only class, because only class matters because capitalism is the root of all evil. They probably don't know or just ignore for their own mental comfort that many communist writers have stated revolution cannot happen without women's liberation. It's the epitome of privilege to be able to tell everybody to ignore their own opressions for the sake of an ideology. And then they wonder why the fuck people are not interested in the radical left and become liberals.

No. 69019

I had someone tell me that trans women in 3rd world countries have it worse than biological women in third world countries. It makes no sense to me. I highly doubt trans women in those countries pass even the slightest bit, so I don't really think they will be attacked. It's just disgusting that people believe that men have it worse than women.

No. 69028

haha no, the trannies literally think they're female.

No. 69029

if they knew so much about trans and 3rd world they'd know a lot of those countries force gay men to transition so they're just straight women.

No. 69034

>Being bullied for all their lives by their peers
>Excessive escapism and isolation from the community around them sitting at the computer
>Add these together and they create the perfect fetishy waifu/husbando character they want to become themselves

No. 69076

3rd worlder here
It's true, sort of, but needs context. A lot of trannies end up in prostitution because they're poor, or because their families dont accept them, or because they can't find work anywhere else - and you can probably guess that the men that seek them out aren't exactly 100% sane or comfortable with their sexuality. Because they don't interact with trannies during real life hours, they see them less like humans and more like a bizarre, shameful fetish. It gets violent often.

These trannies aren't any less autogynephilic than others, and in that regard I have no respect for them. They act exactly like gay males, not like women. However, they also don't deserve to be forced into prostitution, or to be abused and killed.

It's a tough subject because one has to reconcile their justified dislike for trans"ness" as a concept but acknowledge their situation. I don't think this is relevant for sjw narrative and it's disgusting that they try to use these people to push and justify their agenda.

>doubt trans women in those countries pass even the slightest bit, so I don't really think they will be attacked

It means they're more likely to be attacked. They don't look much like women but you can tell they're trying to, they end up looking like circus freaks who are neither here nor there.

It's also relevant to note that "3rd world countries" are not the poor wastelands most people seem to think they are. We have middle class and rich people just like any other country. Trannies who are not poor don't have it any worse.

No. 69077

File: 1508081660706.jpg (901.58 KB, 3925x2208, IMG_3552.JPG)

From the article:
>'The most amazing moment was when I got my breasts and I could show them off – almost to prove to everyone that I was a woman,' she said.
>So far she has only had breast enhancement surgery and Botox injections in her lips – less intensive than the procedures which lay ahead. 'I want to concentrate on making my face a bit softer – taking away some of the harsh lines – it is more important for me to fix what everyone sees when I am outside before I change what's between my legs.'

So being a girl is about being a huge-titted bimbo? K. In all honestly I don't consider myself a TERF, but I absolutely hate reading shit like this. Women and the experience of being a woman are about more than just having breasts! People write and share these articles to show how progressive and accepting they are, but they don't think about how this attitude hinders women (especially those whom aren't hyper-feminine and don't fit into the traditional female gender roles) and how it promotes the gender dichotomy.

No. 69078

yes but all you've said can be said for 3rd world poor women as well. you said yourself trans and women both have it the same if they're rich, so why not when they're poor? poor prostitutes even in 1st world countries have a high violence and murder rate, it comes more with prostitution than being trans. plus trans prostitutes don't risk pregnancy and are, unsuprisingly, not physically weaker like their female counterparts.

No. 69079

trans shit just reinforces gender roles, plain and simple. being a woman doesn't mean anything you know innately, it doesn't even have much to do with just being female. any experiences women have that reinforce them being a woman come from external sources. society, your every day experiences. it's not something you feel, it's something you're given, and told. it's someone holding the door for you, or someone refusing to listen to you, someone shouting obscene things at you, because you have breasts. the breasts, even the vagina does not make you a woman, the interactions you have with society do.

i just wish trannies would stop this irreversible dressup shit and concentrate on real gender issues. most of these men hate being men because of male gender roles? fix them, don't change you because you like women's better, we're over here trying to dismantle gender roles and these men come in pushing them on us even harder.

No. 69081

File: 1508086830589.jpg (37.05 KB, 500x631, 1495854642107.jpg)

I am a rather quiet radical feminist, yesterday at a family wedding I saw my niece who looks up to me (13, tomboy girl) wearing entirely men's clothes to the wedding. Maybe she likes men's fashion, and I'm supportive of that. I enjoy wearing it too, its important that both sides are willing to break gender norms without the reality-denial insistence that they are something they aren't.

I'm concerned she may or may not be pushed to transition, like most queer or "non-standard" young girls with access to tumblr (which she does). I don't want to message on facebook her and push her to the other side and have her transition out of spite or something… but I've been on the same medication they give to FTM girls during puberty. It really can fucking destroy your life and left me temporarily paralyzed (yet they wont recall that medication, thanks big pharma). I feel like I cannot just leave it be. I feel so lost on what to message her. how to tell her its okay and to not give into the peer pressure and it's okay to not subscribe to pre-defined bullshit.

No. 69091

Canada is a liberal cesspool. This is the same place where a man in his 40s left his family and pretends to be a 6 year old girl. I fucking can't stand this bullshit.

No. 69093


I have a cousin I'm worried about for the same reason. She's…kind of on the edge of going fakeboi, I think? And I get why–I think she's definitely at least bi, and while she's not butch, she is very, very uncomfortable with being hit w/ everything currently being thrown at her as a teen girl. There's certain things she's said that lead me to believe she's leaning towards identifying as anything-but-a-girl to deal with that. I don't know that I worry about medical transition yet (except I think she's binding, which can really fucking up your lungs, and might be curious about top surgery)…but I wish there was a way to say "I know what you're dealing with, I really do, but your discomofort is not proof of some innate un-femalehood and there are other ways to deal."

No. 69094

How many Secret Radfems/Terfs do you guys think are out there? I wonder this a lot–I work in lefty/creative industry in a lefty town so I'm surrounded by trans people/sisters not cis-ters/etc, and everyone SEEMS to be in lockstep. But I was once too, a year or so ago, until I stumbled onto radfem tumblr and everything I saw there made sense. I keep it TOTALLY quiet, though, no one irl knows. So I find myself wondering, especially when something especially ridiculous happens (transphobic pussy hats/womb-carriers/denial of sexual dimorphism/the general insistence that there is literally no diff between cis and trans women except the unique trans experiences us cissies could never ever hope to understand)….how many other women are there that I know, rolling their eyes where no one can see?

And related…I wonder how long this kind of BS can go on. Do you see a backlash coming? I want to believe there will be, but like…then sometimes I think, no, there'll be a backlash against all this but it'll be super right wing and everyone will smear libfem shit as radfem and everyone will go on knowing jack shit about actual radical feminism.

No. 69096

File: 1508111018477.jpg (92.44 KB, 810x1024, DK2evrHXUAAxWSJ.jpg)


luv 2 watch these hyper horny/boring-ass kink game making/anarcho-communist LARPING/stealth rapist asshole eat their own

No. 69097

I'm not saying female prostitutes don't have it bad, just that with tranny prostitute clients there's an added layer of shame and disgust that's not as often present in the men who seek female prostitutes. They're killed a lot more often despite having a man's strength.

And as I said, they may not even be working and they're still obvious trannies in poor neighborhoods. Poor people aren't exactly known for their tolerance towards outcasts.

If you're a woman you're a second class citizen but you're still human. A tranny isn't even that. You don't need to be pro trans to acknowledge that they're in a shit situation, women at least get to live a semi-normal life even if they're poor. It's not always "it's either prostitution or die of starvation", you can get a shit job cleaning someone's house and raise your thousandth kid. But nobody will hire a tranny anywhere.

No. 69099

Believe it or not, I'm starting to see a backlash against identity politics in ultra liberal kweer circles on Tumblr, with the push back against asexuality identity politics and all that. I think the next step is gender politics. We gotta keep talking and make more women aware though. Never shut up

No. 69100

>men are more oppressed than women
back to /r9k/ with you

No. 69101

Oh and to add to this
>you said yourself trans and women both have it the same if they're rich
No, obviously the trannies have it better, they're born male and also get to scream "opresshun!!!" at everything. But poor people are ruthless, and it gets worse when they're the majority of the population. I grew up in a poor city and I feared for my safety because I was white. I can only imagine what it must be like to be a man in a wig and a dress in that environment.

No. 69102

read my fucking post and stop shitting up the thread. I'm not saying men have it worse than women, I'm saying that mentally ill men in this particular context have it worse than pretty much everyone. It's not a trans issue as much as it's a poverty and public health issue.

It's not comparable or related to middle class sjw lefty trans discussion and so it should not be used by trannies in 1st world countries to win oppression points.

sage for pretty much offtopic

No. 69104

I've noticed this too, especially the backlash against extreme asexual/mogai politics. I wonder often how many people I see jumping on that are privately also critical of trans stuff.

No. 69106

boo fucking hoo, why are you sitting here trying to make an ~oppresshun~ pissing contest yet blaming others for it. even if trannies 'have it worse' they put themselves into that position on purpose, knowingly.

No. 69107

>if you're a woman you're a second class citizen but you're still human

As another 3rd worlder you have been spouting some load of bs here.

No. 69108

File: 1508118102260.gif (982.3 KB, 320x287, 1458421590676.gif)

>I grew up in a poor city and I feared for my safety because I was white

So you know that in 3rd world countries white people have privileges, right? So basically people treated you more like a human no matter where (civilians or police) because you were white. Yet you say you were afraid because you were white. That's another load of bullshit right there.

No. 69109

Given that it sounds like we have a lot of international women here, anyone else fucking fed up with the discourse treating nonwhite/third world/etc countries and cultures like they had nooooo ideeeeaaa what sex was before white people came along and that it was all a multiple-gendered utopia? I come from one of the cultures people love to tout as having "third genders" and guess what, we definitely figured out how babies were made early on, and also, those who birth them have always been treated like shit and still are. This discourse drives me fucking crazy because the experience of women in my country CANNOT be talked about w/o talking about bodies, pregnancy, all that, and suddenly….I have so few English-speaking online places to do that in.

The Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie thing really was the last straw for me. Women like us don't need to be "enlightened" by Western (and lbr, white) gender politics, we need to be listened to. Maybe our experience of gender CANNOT BE DISCUSSED AS SEPARATE FROM OUR BODIES. But no, we can't have ANYTHING to teach a bunch of white males about our experience. We have to bow to them. In the meantime, my 14-year-old cousin will get pregnant by a 30-year-old because of how shit our culture is towards women.

People like to scream "TERFS ARE ALL WHITE!!!!" but radical feminism is the only kind that speaks to me a fucking brown woman from a poor country.

No. 69110

>they put themselves into that position on purpose, knowingly.

You should probably rethink this statement, especially in the context of violence and abuse.

No. 69111

Learn how to sage, dumbass

No. 69112

File: 1508122224102.jpg (57.88 KB, 639x629, DMESr-3V4AUFvRk.jpg)

Tfw a confessed rapist is speaking at the women's March. How very progressive. Ironically he raped a transman

No. 69115

You don't get it, I'm equating them with the mentally retarded and the untreated schizophrenic. As far as I'm concerned they belong on the same group - incapable of looking after themselves and suffering because of it. I said it time and again, I'm not talking about their "transness" because it's irrelevant in this discussion where we're talking about individuals with enough education to know what they're doing. Poor trannies don't know what they're doing. They're retarded. Clearer now?

>da whitey no discriminated, muh people only one who suffer
You've clearly never been to a poor enough place, poor people of color into organized crime tend to create closed communities where they look after their own and distrust/dislike everyone else. I'm aware white people have privileges generally speaking, I'm not saying I was ~oppressed, just that I was constantly threatened by a group who happened to have control where I lived. Anyone who wasn't part of the group or didn't conform lived in fear - gay, white, asian, man in dress, bookworm, non-Christian, the list goes on. It's not systematic so it's not about privileges or racism

No. 69120

Oh yes, especially when they bring up this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_posh

Parents who can't conceive a son dress their daughter up as a boy, whether she likes it or not, so that she could attend school, work and live a free life. Tumblr SJWs act like this is some sort of a progressive view of gender and applaud it, when it's literally because women aren't worth shit in their society and the only way for them to have some quality to their lives they need to disguise as men.

fucking kill me now

No. 69124

"Identity validation" and plastic surgery aren't human rights. End of discussion

No. 69125

Women are literally seen as subhuman in most of the world shut up lmao. Men in dresses will never have it worse than actual fenale humans

No. 69128

this just reinforces in my mind that many if not all transwomen are just fetish roleplayers.

No. 69135

"transbians" are just AGP men

No. 69140

File: 1508181606706.jpg (78.72 KB, 965x584, 86f3f0ad-24e0-48e8-bcb9-d3d0e5…)

where's the lie

No. 69141

File: 1508181706510.jpg (50.01 KB, 900x545, r9k cycle.jpg)

male version

No. 69142

This one needs more steps. Wannabe antifa/communist "activism," graduating to "feminism" that literally does not care about the experience of 99.9% of women from the dawn of time, writing articles for Everday Feminism about how winged eyeliner encompasses your trans femme identity uwu, really over the top "terf hunter" phase, "game dev" phase all about making ~super gay~ VNs, obsession with soft smol glittery anime waifus that all look like 8-year-old girls with tits and dicks, etc. Although I guess some of those never end….

No. 69150

Also needs a step where he becomes a "transbian"

No. 69151


And absolutely never shuts the fuck up about how their desire to stick their penis into vaginas is ~~~~so gay lol omg I'm So Gay~~~~~ high femme tee hee girl dick I've Always Been Soooo Gaaaay Even When I Was A Greasy White Teenage White Boy In Cargo Shorts And A Ratty Black Hoodie, Jacking My Dick To Forced Femme Doujin And Treating The Girls In My Anime Club Like Shit Because I Saw Them As Validation Machines Like Every Other Straight Boy, I Was SOOOOO GAYYYYYYY

No. 69165

those rainbow striped knee high socks lol…. i'm cackling

No. 69166


Oooh, let's catalogue the contents of an Alt-y Terf-Hunting Transbian. Alice McTechSupportJob.

-rainbow socks
-fingerless gloves
-many chokers

What else?

No. 69167

File: 1508218531368.jpeg (224.5 KB, 640x707, C6347D36-807C-4BD3-8C55-7540DE…)

Hey men, unsure of how to support women? Start by supporting men who feel like women.

No. 69168

schoolgirl skirt
shiny and stuff ebay cosplay wig
flaky drugstore eyeliner
matronly, ill-fitting dresses
walmart perfume to mask natural male BO

No. 69169

i think a lot of MtFs started out as incels who were fascinated that popular feminism was "sex positive". y'know the creepy dude who call themselves feminists to get laid. then when realizing feminists love MtFs, they decided to play that part too.

No. 69170

Too accurate

No. 69171

File: 1508222332677.png (174 KB, 456x810, lol.png)

No. 69174

File: 1508223627819.jpg (24.81 KB, 460x276, Diana-Rakipi-a-Burrnesha--008.…)

The whole "other cultures have third gender/multi gender etc, whites have invented oppressive binary system" is such bullshit. It's mostly similar as >>69120 - either families who couldn't get a son, disguise their daughter as male because women aren't worth shit in their society. Here is another example from Albania:

Albanian sworn virgins aka "Burnesha"

>The Kanun dictates that families must be patrilineal (meaning wealth is inherited through a family's men) and patrilocal (upon marriage, a woman moves into the household of her husband's family). Women are treated like property of the family. Under the Kanun women are stripped of many rights. They cannot smoke, wear a watch, or vote in their local elections. They cannot buy land, and there are many jobs they are not permitted to hold. There are even establishments that they cannot enter.

>A woman becomes a sworn virgin by swearing an irrevocable oath, in front of twelve village or tribal elders, to practice celibacy. Then she is allowed to live as a man and may dress in male clothes, use a male name, carry a gun, smoke, drink alcohol, take on male work, act as the head of a household (for example, living with a sister or mother), play music and sing, and sit and talk socially with men.

>Sworn virgins could also participate in blood feuds. If a sworn virgin was killed in a blood feud her death counted as a full life for the purposes of calculating blood money, rather than the half a life ordinarily accorded for a female death.[11]

Again, a woman only manages to get rights and worth, but she has to do a "transition" and her body is being policed by men.

Tumblr loves Burnesha because they are believed to be the only formal transgender role in Europe. They don't see the misogyny behind it at all, as long as it fits their transgender narrative.

No. 69179

File: 1508242369990.jpg (116.39 KB, 720x783, b7587eb5-702b-4fc7-a299-a2c441…)

These people are out of touch with reality

No. 69190

I feel as if a lot of them wanted to trans so they could be apart of a minority, since the majority of them before transitioning were white males. Also, I hate the names they choose for transitioning. "Helen Rosner, Sophia Black, Phoenix Olivia…" It strikes me as bizarre.

No. 69192


Yeah, what would those boring old cis women know about pregnancy putting their lives and health at risk, am I right

No. 69193


Similarly–I'm from a culture with a "third gender" than, frankly, white people like to write listicles on as SOOO PROGRESSIVE…but nobody ever mentions that it's 1. basically a way of quarantining gay/femme men so they don't contaminate the Real Men, and 2. that there's no option for women. If you can make a baby, that's what you do: you make babies. No opting out. And it's not even like the third gender option people get treated great.

No. 69194


Yeah, one of the biggest schisms I feel like I notice between MtFs and cis women–and libfemmy stuff/trans feminism vs. rad feminism–is over sex and sex positivity. On the one hand, you have us, the first women to grow up in an era of COMPLETELY OMNIPRESENT porn/fetish/etc, plus libfem ideas telling us that poledancing classes are super feminist, those icky old 70s dykes just didn't like fun, lipstick is empowering, etc etc. So we're reaching adulthood and realizing, actually, that growing up in this culture was really hard and fucked us up in a lot of ways and we want to talk about it. On the other hand, you have these MtF "transbians" who grew up as straight boys, and often nerdy ones, who sucked down porn and like, fetishy jiggly moe shit that portrays women as sexy kittenish grade schoolers, from an early age, and now they're ~women~ and "into feminism" but they fundamentally cannot understand a feminism/womanhood that is uncomfortable with porn/objectification b/c whether they say so or not…their conception of themselves and their sexuality is completely built upon consuming these porny images of women, and not growing up as the person being consumed. Weirdest symbol of this I notice: I know so few cis women into moe anime/games, but I know SO MANY transbians who are. Like, how many transbian twitter accounts have a seen where the tl is just a wall of blushing catgirl schoolgirls who turn into tanks or whatever shyly scissoring each other or w/e.

This is the first time I've typed out these thoughts I've had swirling around in my head for a while. Does this seem right to anybody else?

No. 69196

I see your point, but there are tons of non trans women into video games and moe anime.

No. 69198

kek, so glad my boyfriend is a small c conservative.

you girls dug your own graves dating left-wing men, i can actually talk to my boyfriend about women's issues (rape and sexual violence for example) and he'll listen and sympathize, he even sympathized with the whole "men shouldn't tell disgusting 'jokes' in front of women" argument.

of course, he hates feminism but that's because he associates it with libfeminism and doesn't understand how having a revolving door prison system for rapists with a 40% reoffending rate is somehow "helping women's welfare".

honestly tempted to just go full nationalist.

No. 69199


Idk, I'm one of those women (thought I've cooled on moe) but…it's hard for me to find cis women who loooooove Girls und Panzer or w/e, you know? They exist, but…it's a hell of a lot easier to find trans women into it. It's generalization, but I feel like it holds.

No. 69200

I think most of us love yourselves enough to date date conservative lol, besides it sounds like you are one of those women who are enchanted by guys doing shit they're supposed to know. Get higher standards bb. Stop raising grown men :/

No. 69202

Go full nationalist. My boyfriend is the kindest, most understanding and empathetic partner I've ever had.

No. 69203

That may be true. I personally like some moe anime but the sexualized stuff is too much for me. A lot of these men seem to look at anime as a guide to being women, and they also use the 'trap' thing a lot to describe themselves, which is gross.

No. 69204

calm down, nutball, none of us are dating these freaks. why are you so concerned with trying to flaunt your bf anyways?

No. 69224

>it's your fault for being leftist cum buckets lmao I'm totally a girl my sisters!!!!

No. 69226

>why are you so concerned with trying to flaunt your bf anyways?
I think she's just trying to win brownie points for her party by stating that her bf is right-wing/conservative/whatever AND sympathetic to women's issues. as if that somehow negates the hordes of mysoginists who are inclined towards such political views

No. 69229

I hate the trend when conservatives agree with us. Like conservatives are as bad as liberal feminists. Fuck off.

No. 69231

I don't mind it so much, because it gets the job done, but then again, it's the intent and not the action.

No. 69249


No. 69315

File: 1508466098420.jpg (103.57 KB, 540x405, fa1b5fdd-747c-4651-84e2-c5d785…)

Who do you ladies think is the most annoying Trans activist/Anti terf? I despise Zinnia Jones. Man has the such a punchable face.

No. 69316

Don't lump Chris Chan into this. He's in a different world.

No. 69321

still a lunatic homophobic straight dude incel type obsessed with porn like the rest of 'em

No. 69326

What's Zinnia's deal again? I remember she irritated me at some point but I cannot remember what it was.

No. 69330

I'm a gender critical socialist.
I get flak for it sometimes, but we're definitely making headway on leftypol. I used to get banned all the time (pretty sure board owner is a tranny) but now I get plenty of people agreeing with me. Stick around.

No. 69332

blonde on the bottom row looks good, I don't even want to know who that is so I don't ruin my positive impression of him with the shit I'm sure he spews

No. 69348

What do you guys think about accepting trans men into discussions on female-related issues? Since they were identified as female at birth to me it makes a lot more sense to include them in discussions about issues affecting females than trans women since they grew up being told they were women and them rejecting that is a huge part of their identity.

No. 69349

since they are -actually- women, it makes sense to me, but at the same time, since they are rejecting their womanhood it doesn't at all, and they'll likely not care. i do think it is important to refuse to accept male or female trans though.

No. 69350

of course it's fine for them to talk about female issues. they are women.

No. 69355

Out of anything, my hugest issues with trans stuff is seeing people tell lesbians to "evaluate" why they don't like dick, or saying they're TERFs for not liking peen, and talking over majority (cis) female experiences and/or assuming the trans/becoming feminine experience=the female experience.

Like, all of this "omg dresses! omg sexy animu girl!" is _not_ about being female. I also hate it when people say trans women are more female than cis women, or "better" somehow. It feels like I can't discuss the possibility of negative feelings about one's assigned sex making someone want to be a different gender, rather than sex dysphoria, and how that should be dealt with using therapy as much as possible instead of giving hormones and surgery.

I'm saying all of this as someone who would date a trans woman and has a lot of trans friends. We need to be critical and allowed to be critical when it comes to people discussing gender in _feminism_, a movement about gender/sex and subjugation.

I don't see myself as a TERF at all, just a critically thinking, LGBT-positive feminist, but a lot of people will jump your ass for not falling into step. ._.

No. 69358


Yeah, it's suddenly really hard to discuss the often ugly relationship female people have towards feminine expectations regarding makeup, fashion, sex, and body stuff because trans women can't relate to it. There's a profound difference between being a male person yearning to occupy that space and a female person punished if they fail to do so. And the only space female people could take it about is…I don't want to say "being colonized," but we can't talk openly about this there right now.

No. 69361

i'm going to just put out there that trans people appropriate gender.

No. 69367

You put it beautifully.

No. 69376

i feel this way tbh, and i don't use appropriate that often that way. like, cultural appropriation is generally fine, but this is just taking something that is -not- yours, claiming you're better at it than the people who it belongs to and saying -they- aren't entitled to it.

No. 69403


I'm a secret radfem/gender critical. I have been since 2013. I work in lefty/creative industry too and am surrounded by all kinds of special identity people, pretend gays, non binaries, trans people. I am actually familiar with some rather significant activists here where I live. I hang around in radical left circles.

No one knows. I guess my career could be ruined if anyone did. Though I have taken distance with some people, and keep it up with some, because I can't stand the misogyny and homophobia. I have sometimes gotten into trouble for voicing some opinions too loudly. And it's funny, after some time the same people who got mad at me started saying same things I did, after those opinions became fashionable in queer circles… Like for example the are straight aces queer thing.

So yes we are here. We just can't know how many of us, since we have to keep quiet for our jobs.

No. 69453

He's cut out of the same cloth as Riley Dennis. He thinks that straight men and lesbians who don't like dicks are transphobic and should just get over it. Among other things.

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